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brento1138
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
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 Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| brento1138 wrote: |
Well, I think people over-rate flip-flopping. Personally, when I flip-flop, I am making educated decisions. I am calculating what is best for an ever-changing situation. Perhaps we need more flip-flopping.
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*sigh*
Yeah, I was a Kerry supporter, too. |
If only Bush flip-flopped on the Iraq war! Gosh darn!  |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| brento1138 wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| brento1138 wrote: |
Well, I think people over-rate flip-flopping. Personally, when I flip-flop, I am making educated decisions. I am calculating what is best for an ever-changing situation. Perhaps we need more flip-flopping.
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*sigh*
Yeah, I was a Kerry supporter, too. |
If only Bush flip-flopped on the Iraq war! Gosh darn! |
I'm all for flip-flopping, assuming that it's genuine. 'Principled' and 'zealous' are kissin cousins. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: Obama's campaign finance promise comes back . . . |
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The WaPo bats for McCain
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| When it was in Mr. Obama's interest to present himself as the ethical savior of an imperiled campaign finance system, he was happy to do so, especially since it didn't seem especially likely at the time that he'd be the nominee. But the real test of a candidate is whether he will stick by an announced principle even when that's against his own interest. Now Mr. Obama could become the first nominee since Watergate to run a campaign fueled entirely by private money. |
I want to thank the mods for fixing the search function. I would not have revived this thread without it.    |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: Obama's campaign finance promise comes back . . . |
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| Kuros wrote: |
The WaPo bats for McCain
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| When it was in Mr. Obama's interest to present himself as the ethical savior of an imperiled campaign finance system, he was happy to do so, especially since it didn't seem especially likely at the time that he'd be the nominee. But the real test of a candidate is whether he will stick by an announced principle even when that's against his own interest. Now Mr. Obama could become the first nominee since Watergate to run a campaign fueled entirely by private money. |
I want to thank the mods for fixing the search function. I would not have revived this thread without it. |
Um, McCain is hardly lily-white here, considering that (whether he takes public financing or not) he is going to end up relying on the very 527 groups he spent half his career crusading against.
It also bears repeating that ninety-nine percent of Obama's "private money" comes from individual donors. Another way to put that would be that it is 99% public financing, with the small difference that the members of the public in question voluntarily donated to his campaign rather than checking a box on their tax form. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| I think even many people who are not going to vote for Obama like him personally. |
Like you wouldn't mind having a beer with him? |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:52 am Post subject: Re: Obama's campaign finance promise comes back . . . |
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| stillnotking wrote: |
When it was in Mr. Obama's interest to present himself as the Um, McCain is hardly lily-white here, considering that (whether he takes public financing or not) he is going to end up relying on the very 527 groups he spent half his career crusading against.
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Well especially given the fact that he received a loan and used federal matching money to guarantee it. The only reason the issue hasn't been dealt with is the fact that there are not enough members on the elections commission to render a ruling on it. |
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agentX
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:40 am Post subject: |
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He's not the nominee yet, and besides, his system may be more democratic that the current finance system.
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/04/obamas_public_financing_connun.php
He did say that he would participate in the public financing system recently.
I can't get the link to work today...wait till tomorrow.
But, I see why- he's not just running against McCain; he's running against the media and the 527s groups. This whole election will be a 527 shooting war. McCain doesn't need to spend as much on ads- he has a whole network on his side (FOX news), plus the entire might of talk radio. That explains why he said he would meet the Republican nominee. But, don't think the 527s groups will stay on the sidelines. In fact, they're instrumental to McCain's plans.
They can racially smear Obama to gain the White vote, without as much splash damage on McCain. McCain can denounce the ads publicly while encouraging them privately, to maintain the non-racist White vote already in his camp.
However, Obama can still opt in and still have access/support from his earned donations.
http://www.philly.com/philly/opinion/20080415_Editorial__Public_Financing_of_the_Presidential_Election.html
In this editorial, the writer states that Obama can pass those donations onto the DNC after accepting public financing. Or he can pass them on to 527s.
So the real question is on McCain. Does he really want to get into a 527 shooting war? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:03 am Post subject: |
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Dickerson: Breaking a promise is a problem of a higher order than changing a policy position.
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Obama's is also exposed because he initially pledged to work against his self-interest on this very point. His promise to take taxpayer funds was always conditional�he'd do it if McCain did, too�but he and his aides said he would "aggressively pursue" negotiations with McCain to work something out. He even said he'd sit down with McCain to find a way. When it came down to it, though, the negotiations that took place don't qualify as aggressive. Obama's lawyer met with McCain's lawyer for a single 40-minute session. That was it. The Obama camp says they quit because it was clear McCain wasn't interested in a deal. But the evidence for this seems to rely in large part on interpreting McCain's position rather than probing and testing it through serious negotiations. Giving up after one meeting seems a little weak, particularly for a candidate who, in the foreign-policy context, says that he will never fear to negotiate.
The final problem for Obama is that he didn't spin his decision very well. He claimed that he had to refuse public funding because McCain was being supported by unregulated 527 groups while his campaign wasn't. That's not so. Right now, Democratic-leaning groups funded by unregulated donations are helping Obama more than Republican groups are helping McCain. Obama also claimed that McCain and the Republican National Committee were fueled by contributions from Washington lobbyists and special interest PACs. Factcheck.org labeled his claim a "large exaggeration and a lame excuse" for opting out of public funding. |
I think Dickerson pretty well shoots down the 527 argument. Obama gets his own 527s too plus his own funds raised. Obama is right that McCain is gaming the public funding system. Certainly, too, McCain is not lilly-white: he's adhering to the public funding because he simply cannot compete.
Barack certainly has some chutzpah, though:
| Obama wrote: |
| I'm asking you to try to do something that's never been done before, declare our independence from a broken system, and run the type of campaign that reflects the grass-roots values that have already changed our politics and brought us this far. |
The broken system: campaign finance reform. Give. Me. A. Break. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| stillnotking wrote: |
Yep. It's a flip-flop, plain and simple ...
In fact, Obama may counter-offer some kind of deal where each candidate can only accept individual contributions of less than $150. It'd be a neat way to help defuse the issue, because
McCain would never accept; he gets too much money from PACs and corporations. |
Actually:
PACs are limited in the amount they can donate. I'm not sure of the present level but the limit was $5000 last time I checked. Since each PAC represents a large group of individual donors, this limit is quite significant. The amount of money an individual donates to a PAC is also limited, so these really represent small donations.
The biggest donations come from couples and families who can each donate up to $2300, both before and after the nomination. So, a couple can donate a maximum of $9200 to one candidate. If the couple has two children, they can donate up to $18,400.
(It was rich couples and families maxing out that funded Hillary. It was because of the limit that she ran out of funds and ran up her big debt and had to stay in the race to make a deal to pay off the debt.)
Corporations are not allowed to donate to candidates for federal office. McCain has received, and will be receiving, nothing from corporations. The same as Obama. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| brento1138 wrote: |
Well, I think people over-rate flip-flopping. Personally, when I flip-flop, I am making educated decisions. I am calculating what is best for an ever-changing situation. Perhaps we need more flip-flopping.
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I agree with this. Information and situations change. Not flip flopping could be called stubbornness. There are a hell of a lot of things that I'd like Bush and Darth to flip flop on. |
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