|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
|
 Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| When the health and safety of children is put at risk by the adults who are responsible for them, then the state has no choice but to get involved. Freedom of religion does not extend as far as having sex with 13-year olds. No freedom is absolute. |
| Adolf Hitler wrote: |
| The State must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bacasper wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| When the health and safety of children is put at risk by the adults who are responsible for them, then the state has no choice but to get involved. Freedom of religion does not extend as far as having sex with 13-year olds. No freedom is absolute. |
| Adolf Hitler wrote: |
| The State must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation. |
|
Comparison to nazi= you no longer have an argument. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| JMO wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| When the health and safety of children is put at risk by the adults who are responsible for them, then the state has no choice but to get involved. Freedom of religion does not extend as far as having sex with 13-year olds. No freedom is absolute. |
| Adolf Hitler wrote: |
| The State must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation. |
|
Comparison to nazi= you no longer have an argument. |
I didn't make that up. If you don't want to believe it, that plus your lack of logic, is your problem. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| happeningthang wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| happeningthang wrote: |
| I don't really understand bcasper's outrage here. |
Good. So then you won't be outraged when I anonymously call in a child abuse complaint against your household, and a SWAT team arrives to separate you from your kids, and now you must prove you are not an abuser. I can understand your position: violation of a few rights is acceptable when it is for the good of the children, right? |
Don't be disingenious.
If events have unfolded as you describe them then there'd be cause for upset.
BUT....
If there's an anonymous phone tip calling in a child abuse complaint, against a group of people who are ideologically related with groups of known abusers, who are known scofflaws who refuse any co-operation with authorities, operate in secrecy and seclusion, and are known to have guns - then authorities have only two choices. They can do nothing, allowing the FLDS Church to stymie them, or do something, which by the unfortunate nature of the suspects would require a large scale police action.
Where's the violation of rights? They're getting due process in the course of having the charges investigated.
I'm saving my sympathy for people, who don't want to run their own patriarchal fiefdoms Taliban style. |
First, the phone tip was phony. Then, you allege
| Quote: |
| ...ideologically related with groups of known abusers, who are known scofflaws who refuse any co-operation with authorities, operate in secrecy and seclusion, and are known to have guns |
A few questions for you:
Do you support the state going after people based on mere ideas?
Since when is a child abuse complaint required to go after scofflaws (and I hadn't even heard this claim until you just made it)?
What you are calling "secrecy and seclusion" others call "privacy." Most people consider family matters ("dirty laundry") private. Is your family an open book in which anyone can wander in and snoop around? I deplore the loss of decorum in social relations.
Then, the claim about guns does not appear in any of the articles. In any event, Americans have a right to own guns.
Since you appear to have missed it the first time around, I'll repeat that this case violates the Fourth and Fifth Amendments of the Constitution by lacking probable cause and requiring DNA testing. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bacasper wrote: |
| JMO wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| When the health and safety of children is put at risk by the adults who are responsible for them, then the state has no choice but to get involved. Freedom of religion does not extend as far as having sex with 13-year olds. No freedom is absolute. |
| Adolf Hitler wrote: |
| The State must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation. |
|
Comparison to nazi= you no longer have an argument. |
I didn't make that up. If you don't want to believe it, that plus your lack of logic, is your problem. |
I'm not saying you made it up. Just seems to be a message board trend. As soon you start comaring people to nazis, it normally means a weak argument. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bacasper wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| When the health and safety of children is put at risk by the adults who are responsible for them, then the state has no choice but to get involved. Freedom of religion does not extend as far as having sex with 13-year olds. No freedom is absolute. |
| Adolf Hitler wrote: |
| The State must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation. |
|
Clever, ba. Good attempt to distract people from the point of the thread.
So you are saying that forced sex with 13-year old girls is a defensible moral stand? That a minor is the property of his/her parents and can be forced to do whatever the parents decide? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| So you are saying that forced sex with 13-year old girls is a defensible moral stand? That a minor is the property of his/her parents and can be forced to do whatever the parents decide? |
You have no evidence of that. I'm saying the state has no right to barge into private households on wild goose chases. The ends do not justify the means. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bacasper wrote: |
First, the phone tip was phony. Then, you allege
| Quote: |
| ...ideologically related with groups of known abusers, who are known scofflaws who refuse any co-operation with authorities, operate in secrecy and seclusion, and are known to have guns |
A few questions for you:
Do you support the state going after people based on mere ideas?
Since when is a child abuse complaint required to go after scofflaws (and I hadn't even heard this claim until you just made it)?
What you are calling "secrecy and seclusion" others call "privacy." Most people consider family matters ("dirty laundry") private. Is your family an open book in which anyone can wander in and snoop around? I deplore the loss of decorum in social relations.
Then, the claim about guns does not appear in any of the articles. In any event, Americans have a right to own guns.
Since you appear to have missed it the first time around, I'll repeat that this case violates the Fourth and Fifth Amendments of the Constitution by lacking probable cause and requiring DNA testing. |
Bacapser you don't seem to have any idea of who the Church of FLDS are, and because of this lack of knowledge you're getting all bent out of shape.
Try some basic research, which should reveal to you that these people's actions (not just their beliefs) involve pologyamy, arranging organised underaged marriages, in many instances with young brides intimidated and unwilling meaning statutory rape. Thats before you start considering the child abandonment (boys get kicked out to keep more brides available for the old boys), welfare fraud, and tax fraud. These inherent actions and the nature of the sect means they're almost some sort of organised crime family.
The 'privacy' you want to afford these guys, is the privacy to continue a 19th century practice to flout the law, and allow some old men autonomy over the lives of others to the point of who can marry who. They operate off the grid, because they know they're doing wrong.
And since when is incest and child abuse a 'family matter'. That's just ridiculous.
My point about the guns is that, yes, Americans are allowed to have guns. And that's why virtually EVERY police action in America involves hordes of officers with guns at the ready. Why are you surprised that they were raided by a SWAT team, when people get guns pointed at them at a traffic stop?
If you read through some of the articles detailing this case you'll learn that there were interviews preceding the raid, with some in the compound confirming the annonymous accusations. So, while the telephone call itself may not be sufficient probable cause, the follow up investigation may well have been. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Exactly... bacasper, I'm sympathetic to your basic argument here, but your apparent belief that there was "no evidence" of any abuse is preposterous. There are books full of survivors' stories from this evil, abusive cult. There is no question that the FLDS were committing horrendous crimes, including statutory rape and incest, on a regular basis. The state did what it had to do.
The ACLU is on site to make sure no one's rights are violated. Which is good -- it's their job, and it's necessary. But it will be a real shame if the state screws up this prosecution.
Check out the Wikipedia entry on Warren Jeffs for a little light reading sometime. Or read Under the Banner of Heaven, if you have a strong stomach. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
They might be the worst people in the world, but that is no reason to ignore the Constitution. I just think it is important to follow it, ESPECIALLY in the worst cases.
I also do not want to see another wacko motivated to do another Oklahoma City.
Finally, I am very concerned about the state interjecting itself into and breaking up families. As a society we are already have too many angry young males coming out of too many fatherless households. These young males are already lacking male role models from school as fewer and fewer men go into teaching, especially at the elementary and middle school levels, yet another casualty of the child abuse witchhunt. An imperfect father is light years better than an absent one. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
From what I've read, the Constitution has been followed. Probable cause was found. I don't see how you can claim the government intervened on a wild goose chase.
One of the basic functions of government is to protect innocent citizens from people who do evil. It's a sad reality that sometimes those evil doers are a part of the same family. It's a mistake to romanticize families and demonize governments.
The courts are the best way we've devised to protect people. If you have a better idea, I'm open to hearing about it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
From what I've read, the Constitution has been followed. Probable cause was found. I don't see how you can claim the government intervened on a wild goose chase.
One of the basic functions of government is to protect innocent citizens from people who do evil. It's a sad reality that sometimes those evil doers are a part of the same family. It's a mistake to romanticize families and demonize governments.
The courts are the best way we've devised to protect people. If you have a better idea, I'm open to hearing about it. |
What are you calling "probable cause?" A phony phone call? Religious beliefs? The government had no evidence; barging into a home to look for it is a wild goose chase. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
agentX
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
This is anything but a wild goose chase, especially on the DNA thing.
The kids there don't know whom their parents are and the parents aren't being honest about which kids are theirs. Since they don't seem to be aware of the truth, the state has no choice but to use DNA testing.
Boys are being dumped in the streets and highways of Nevada because FDLS members want to have all the young girls, and you think it's a wild goose chase?
Hang on, here comes 21 more kids.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695272744,00.html
| Quote: |
Tally of FLDS children jumps from 416 to 437
Guess? Final head count may change
SAN ANGELO, Texas � As authorities collect DNA samples from children taken from the Fundamentalist LDS Church's YFZ Ranch, child welfare workers raised their head count of kids in state protective custody.
The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services confirmed to the Deseret News late Monday that 437 FLDS children are now being housed at the San Angelo Coliseum, along with 95 mothers. That number is up by 21 from the 416 children that child welfare workers have repeatedly reported over the past two weeks.
"We've been able to get a better count now that we're over here at the coliseum," said Shari Pulliam, a spokeswoman for the Texas child protective services. "You can imagine with these many people and different locations, it was hard to get an exact count."
Pulliam defended the earlier numbers, saying that it was difficult to get an accurate count.
"You've got mothers with babies in cots, but not everybody's lying down at the exact same time," she said. "Some are in the restroom at times when you're counting. Some people are in the shower. There's a lot of different things going on at the same time."
Pulliam said getting accurate information from the FLDS people at the makeshift shelter has also been a problem.
"We were told a different name, different birth date every time we asked," she said, admitting that the numbers could change again.
DNA samples
This morning, parents of the children taken from the YFZ Ranch are expected to show up at the Schleicher County Memorial Building in Eldorado to give DNA samples. Authorities say it will help determine paternity and maternity in the nation's biggest-ever child custody case.
"The court finds that an unknown number of males of reproductive age reside, or have resided, at the ranch during the probable time of conception of one or more of the children (who are) the subject of this suit," Judge Barbara Walther said in an order signed Monday. "The court further finds that an unknown number of females of childbearing age reside, or have resided at the ranch and could be the mother of one or more children (who are) the subject of this suit."
The judge's order lists the hundreds of names of parents and children who are known to have resided at the YFZ Ranch, including FLDS leader Warren Jeffs, whom it lists as being in "prison." Jeffs was convicted in Utah of rape as an accomplice for performing a marriage between a 14-year-old girl and her 19-year-old cousin. He is currently incarcerated in Arizona, where he faces similar charges.
DNA samples continue to be taken from the children. They are given a cheek swab, then are photographed and fingerprinted. They have each been assigned a number to identify them and the sample they gave.
"It will take about 30 days to receive results, maybe a little longer," said Janece Rolfe of the Texas Attorney General's Office, which is taking the samples at a cost of $100 per person, footed by taxpayers.
The DNA samples may help determine paternity, but some associated with the FLDS Church fear it could be used in an ongoing criminal probe into the polygamous sect.
"I would assume that's the real reason they want it," said Rod Parker, a Salt Lake City attorney who is acting as a spokesman for the FLDS Church, who spoke with the Deseret News on Monday.The raid on the YFZ Ranch began April 3 when authorities were investigating a phone call purportedly made by a 16-year-old girl who claimed she was abused, pregnant and in a polygamous marriage to a 50-year-old man. Once child welfare workers were on the ranch, they said they discovered other evidence of abuse. |
Islamic terrorists: blow yourself up, get only 72 virgins.
FLDS Men: build a compound, start with 3 wives and get a seemingly endless supply of virgins.
Which one sounds like the better deal? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
I understand the idea of following the constitution, but this community has allowed all kinds of illegal activity to go including older men sleeping with teenage girls and with it being done without proper legal consent. Minors are not capable of making decisions about marriage. By doing the DNA testing the government can find out which adults broke the law, because they are not going to simply volunteer and the community harmed the minors according to American laws. That's another way to look at this.
The community acted outside the laws and the constitution of the country. They are in a grey area. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
You guys don't seem to get it.
They have no probable cause to be doing the DNA tests in the first place! You can't just barge in to someone's home and start looking for evidence of a crime. Furthermore, the tests violate both the Fourth and Fifth Amendments.
| agentX wrote: |
| Boys are being dumped in the streets and highways of Nevada because FDLS members want to have all the young girls, and you think it's a wild goose chase? |
What happened to "They are being raised to be predators?" That's pretty hard to do if they are not around.
I love how the story keeps changing as it becomes convenient. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
