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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| My particular spin is that hate speech be discouraged but not banned or formally punished. |
I tend to view as I would if I were riding in an alevator with a good friend who suddenly let out a supremely pungent fart and acted as if there was nothing to be ashamed of about it. Happens once, I'll do my best to forget it, but I'll remember it if it happens again. After that, he gets a quick little precis from The Bobster about how civilized people behave in polite society.
Yeah. I know. It trivializes a lot of race and gender issues to compare bigotry with symptoms of distress in the lower intestine. Treating it as such the first couple of times is my idea of charity, though. |
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SirFink
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
I'm not sure I follow. The speech is not a crime in of itself. The act is the crime and the speech helps determine motive, which has always been considered when determining the seriousness of a crime.
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Therein lies the problem. Do you want the state deciding which motives are bad and which are really really bad?
If a Nazi skinhead beat up a Jew while yelling "dirty Jew!" the whole time, he'd get 10 years for attempted murder and hate crime. If a Jew beat up a Nazi skinhead yelling "dirty gentile!" the whole time, would his punishment be equal? Remember the OJ jury?
Can juries and politicians and judges be trusted to enforce such laws equally, i.e. Christians and atheists, blacks and whites, etc? And, ultimately, does it really matter why someone bashed your skull in? Just punish the guy, regardless of the reason.
The scariest thing of all to me is that what we're really talking about here is not what someone said or wrote while committing a crime, but what they were thinking. So we're really getting into a thought crime situation, i.e. the government is deciding what we're allowed to think and what we're not allowed to think. Juries, lawyers, judges and politicians will be in the business of trying to figure out what someone was thinking rather than just judging them on their actions. If a Nazi skinhead was on trial for beating up a Jew and knew he'd be facing an additional 10 years for a "hate crime" what do you suppose he'll testify was his thought? "Who me? Oh, I was just mad at the guy for stepping on my toe. Is he Jewish? I had no idea." |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| SirFink wrote: |
| flakfizer wrote: |
I'm not sure I follow. The speech is not a crime in of itself. The act is the crime and the speech helps determine motive, which has always been considered when determining the seriousness of a crime.
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Therein lies the problem. Do you want the state deciding which motives are bad and which are really really bad?
If a Nazi skinhead beat up a Jew while yelling "dirty Jew!" the whole time, he'd get 10 years for attempted murder and hate crime. If a Jew beat up a Nazi skinhead yelling "dirty gentile!" the whole time, would his punishment be equal? Remember the OJ jury?
Can juries and politicians and judges be trusted to enforce such laws equally, i.e. Christians and atheists, blacks and whites, etc? And, ultimately, does it really matter why someone bashed your skull in? Just punish the guy, regardless of the reason.
The scariest thing of all to me is that what we're really talking about here is not what someone said or wrote while committing a crime, but what they were thinking. |
Yes. It's called motive. We have always cared about what the criminal was thinking during the course of his crime. How is this different? Again, the words he says and thoughts he has are not the crime. Another example of trying to "read someone's thoughts" is during sentencing when it is considered whether or not the criminal shows any remorse for his crime. Considering the criminal's mental state and motives at the time of the crime (and even after it) have always been considered when sentencing the criminal. |
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Zenas
Joined: 17 May 2008
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I like the hate crime idea. Anyone who commits a crime against someone simply because that person is black or gay or something, will almost certainly have "reason" and opportunity to commit similar crimes in the future. |
You're fairly naive. People have hated people different from themselves since time immemorial. That is why we had nation states, people of the five different races aren't meant to live together. They were created to live among their own kind. Simple as that.
But man thought he knew better than God and decided God made a mistake and starting forcing non-whites upon whites - mostly in Europe, Canada, Australia, the UK and the US. That's where most of the problem is now and most of the hate crime legislation.
Now that we westerners are being forced to live with people not of our race, we are also having hate crimes forced upon us to prevent us from saying or even thinking bad thoughts about those people who shouldn't be in our country. And about the government who is forcing this condition upon us.
No racial problems in Norway or Sweden to speak of. Why not? No immigrants allowed in. The Norwegians get along well enough with other Norwegians and Swedes get along well enough with other Swedes. Stick a bunch of Malawis in either country and sooner or latter there'd be problems. natural as dogs fighting with cats.
Catholic France on the other hand, has a problem. Muslims have been brought in from Algiers and Morocco and other countries and Bardot can't speak her mind without a price. Speaking of the French, look at Quebec. French Canadians fighting with British Canadians my entire lifetime and what to secede.
Same with the UK. Immigrants are ruining the country and the Brits can't complain or face fines / imprisonment. Ditto Canada and soon the US.
In the US, the blacks fight the browns and both fight the whites, but if the whites complain, the whites are 'racist' and white supremacists and often times have to attend sensitivity training and other pc brainwashing workshops. The entire Southwest US will be returned to the Mexicans because we whites didn't keep them out.
Another fine example is Israelis and the Palestinians. The Jews are killing off the Palestinians right before the world and yet these same people are pushing multi-culturalism down everyone else's throat.
Even in Africa the blacks can't stop killing each other. And the whites, even those who grow their food.
China - no racial problems to speak of. Japan? Same. Korea? Same. Why - no other people live there in any great numbers. Heck, Korea has what one million foreigners among them and most of them are educated professionals mostly whites.
Solution? Send everyone back to their own country. That's where they belong. Not going happen though, so get used to constant fighting and racial conflict for the rest of your lifetime. And more and more calls for thought crime laws to prevent those of us who don't like it from speaking out. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Zenas wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I like the hate crime idea. Anyone who commits a crime against someone simply because that person is black or gay or something, will almost certainly have "reason" and opportunity to commit similar crimes in the future. |
You're fairly naive. People have hated people different from themselves since time immemorial. That is why we had nation states, people of the five different races aren't meant to live together. They were created to live among their own kind. Simple as that.
So you are against interracial marriages then?
But man thought he knew better than God and decided God made a mistake and starting forcing non-whites upon whites - mostly in Europe, Canada, Australia, the UK and the US. That's where most of the problem is now and most of the hate crime legislation.
God never said that the different races were not allowed to live together. You find me ONE passage in the Bible where it says that
Now that we westerners are being forced to live with people not of our race, we are also having hate crimes forced upon us to prevent us from saying or even thinking bad thoughts about those people who shouldn't be in our country. And about the government who is forcing this condition upon us.
OUR country? America and Canada took their countries from the Native Americans. If it's anybody, it's theirs
No racial problems in Norway or Sweden to speak of. Why not? No immigrants allowed in. The Norwegians get along well enough with other Norwegians and Swedes get along well enough with other Swedes. Stick a bunch of Malawis in either country and sooner or latter there'd be problems. natural as dogs fighting with cats.
Catholic France on the other hand, has a problem. Muslims have been brought in from Algiers and Morocco and other countries and Bardot can't speak her mind without a price. Speaking of the French, look at Quebec. French Canadians fighting with British Canadians my entire lifetime and what to secede.
Same with the UK. Immigrants are ruining the country and the Brits can't complain or face fines / imprisonment. Ditto Canada and soon the US.
In the US, the blacks fight the browns and both fight the whites, but if the whites complain, the whites are 'racist' and white supremacists and often times have to attend sensitivity training and other pc brainwashing workshops. The entire Southwest US will be returned to the Mexicans because we whites didn't keep them out.
White supremacy is not a good thing, JFYI
Another fine example is Israelis and the Palestinians. The Jews are killing off the Palestinians right before the world and yet these same people are pushing multi-culturalism down everyone else's throat.
Even in Africa the blacks can't stop killing each other. And the whites, even those who grow their food.
China - no racial problems to speak of. Japan? Same. Korea? Same. Why - no other people live there in any great numbers. Heck, Korea has what one million foreigners among them and most of them are educated professionals mostly whites.
Your numbers are WAY off. The majority of foreigners here are NOT educated professionals. They are DDD workers. Don't spout stupidity, educate yourself
Solution? [b]Send everyone back to their own country. That's where they belong.
Not going happen though, so get used to constant fighting and racial conflict for the rest of your lifetime. And more and more calls for thought crime laws to prevent those of us who don't like it from speaking out. |
(bolding mine)
You first. If you think everyone belongs in your own country why aren't you there? Quite likely it's because you know you'll be charged with a hate crime there.
And stop posting this kind of crap on the board. This is NOT an avenue for free speech. It violates the TOS. I'm all for free speech, but we all agreed not to post this kind of stuff when we signed up.[/b] |
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Zenas
Joined: 17 May 2008
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| And stop posting this kind of crap on the board. This is NOT an avenue for free speech. It violates the TOS. I'm all for free speech, but we all agreed not to post this kind of stuff when we signed up. |
What kind of crap, the truth? Since when is telling the truth against the TOS?
| Quote: |
OUR country? America and Canada took their countries from the Native Americans. If it's anybody, it's theirs |
It's our country now, isn't it? At least for now. We took it from them. Just like the Mexicans are talking much of America back from us. And the Muslims are taking over parts of France. And the UK.
As for many of the immigrants in Korean, when they start causing problems, educated or not, the Koreans will ship them back to their own country, won't they? Same thing we should be doing.
Why is it when some of you don't like what is being said, you start yelling about the 'rules?'
Why not just debate the facts and stop whining?
Start with this:
White supremacy is not a good thing, JFYI
Why can't whites defend themselves? If black and Muslims and Jewish people and Latin Americans can defend themselves, why can't whites? Why is it when whites simple defend their right to exist they are labeled white supremacists?
Pause, take a deep breath and just answer the question with out a knee jerk reaction. You just might learn something. |
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Beej
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Location: Eungam Loop
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| Zenas wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I like the hate crime idea. Anyone who commits a crime against someone simply because that person is black or gay or something, will almost certainly have "reason" and opportunity to commit similar crimes in the future. |
You're fairly naive. People have hated people different from themselves since time immemorial. That is why we had nation states, people of the five different races aren't meant to live together. They were created to live among their own kind. Simple as that.
But man thought he knew better than God and decided God made a mistake and starting forcing non-whites upon whites - mostly in Europe, Canada, Australia, the UK and the US. That's where most of the problem is now and most of the hate crime legislation.
Now that we westerners are being forced to live with people not of our race, we are also having hate crimes forced upon us to prevent us from saying or even thinking bad thoughts about those people who shouldn't be in our country. And about the government who is forcing this condition upon us.
No racial problems in Norway or Sweden to speak of. Why not? No immigrants allowed in. The Norwegians get along well enough with other Norwegians and Swedes get along well enough with other Swedes. Stick a bunch of Malawis in either country and sooner or latter there'd be problems. natural as dogs fighting with cats.
Catholic France on the other hand, has a problem. Muslims have been brought in from Algiers and Morocco and other countries and Bardot can't speak her mind without a price. Speaking of the French, look at Quebec. French Canadians fighting with British Canadians my entire lifetime and what to secede.
Same with the UK. Immigrants are ruining the country and the Brits can't complain or face fines / imprisonment. Ditto Canada and soon the US.
In the US, the blacks fight the browns and both fight the whites, but if the whites complain, the whites are 'racist' and white supremacists and often times have to attend sensitivity training and other pc brainwashing workshops. The entire Southwest US will be returned to the Mexicans because we whites didn't keep them out.
Another fine example is Israelis and the Palestinians. The Jews are killing off the Palestinians right before the world and yet these same people are pushing multi-culturalism down everyone else's throat.
Even in Africa the blacks can't stop killing each other. And the whites, even those who grow their food.
China - no racial problems to speak of. Japan? Same. Korea? Same. Why - no other people live there in any great numbers. Heck, Korea has what one million foreigners among them and most of them are educated professionals mostly whites.
Solution? Send everyone back to their own country. That's where they belong. Not going happen though, so get used to constant fighting and racial conflict for the rest of your lifetime. And more and more calls for thought crime laws to prevent those of us who don't like it from speaking out. |
After reading this post, you need to just leave this board immediately. Are you forgetting about the slave trade/
No ethnic tensions in Sweden? No immigrants to Scandanavia. Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Just stop now. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| Zenas wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And stop posting this kind of crap on the board. This is NOT an avenue for free speech. It violates the TOS. I'm all for free speech, but we all agreed not to post this kind of stuff when we signed up. |
What kind of crap, the truth? Since when is telling the truth against the TOS?
That is not what you are doing. I haven't seen one truth come from your mouth yet. Read a history textbook...better yet read a few. Then come back to debate
| Quote: |
OUR country? America and Canada took their countries from the Native Americans. If it's anybody, it's theirs |
It's our country now, isn't it? At least for now. We took it from them. Just like the Mexicans are talking much of America back from us. And the Muslims are taking over parts of France. And the UK.
As for many of the immigrants in Korean, when they start causing problems, educated or not, the Koreans will ship them back to their own country, won't they? Same thing we should be doing.
Why is it when some of you don't like what is being said, you start yelling about the 'rules?'
As I said before, we AGREED to these rules by signing up. If you don't like the rules, then leave. You don't get to come here and ignore them.
Why not just debate the facts and stop whining?
That's rich coming from you, you've been whining about the poor downtrodden whites and interracial mixing.
Start with this:
White supremacy is not a good thing, JFYI
Why can't whites defend themselves? If black and Muslims and Jewish people and Latin Americans can defend themselves, why can't whites? Why is it when whites simple defend their right to exist they are labeled white supremacists?
Again that is not what you are doing. You are parroting a Neo-Nazi/Klan line. That is against the TOS.
Pause, take a deep breath and just answer the question with out a knee jerk reaction. You just might learn something. |
Umm...what question were you asking again? |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| Zenas wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I like the hate crime idea. Anyone who commits a crime against someone simply because that person is black or gay or something, will almost certainly have "reason" and opportunity to commit similar crimes in the future. |
You're fairly naive. People have hated people different from themselves since time immemorial. That is why we had nation states, people of the five different races aren't meant to live together. They were created to live among their own kind. Simple as that.
|
Our "own kind" is humankind. Simple as that.
And I don't get the point of this line: "People have hated people different from themselves since time immemorial."
So? People have murdered and stolen from people of their own kind since the beginning too. We still try to prevent this behavior with systems of law and punishment. Murder has been around since the beginning. So has theft, rape, slavery and as you say, racism. That means we should not try to put a stop to these things? |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| SirFink wrote: |
| If a Nazi skinhead beat up a Jew while yelling "dirty Jew!" the whole time, he'd get 10 years for attempted murder and hate crime. If a Jew beat up a Nazi skinhead yelling "dirty gentile!" the whole time, would his punishment be equal? |
If so, that would be a travesty of justice, wouldn't it? Of course the Nazi guy is guilty of a more serious crime than his victim, who was probably just responding to provocation ...
That said, I don't know if there needs to be a special class of laws to punish Nazis (or other "hate criminals") ... I guess I'm on the fence on that one. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Zenas wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And stop posting this kind of crap on the board. This is NOT an avenue for free speech. It violates the TOS. I'm all for free speech, but we all agreed not to post this kind of stuff when we signed up. |
What kind of crap, the truth? Since when is telling the truth against the TOS?
That is not what you are doing. I haven't seen one truth come from your mouth yet. Read a history textbook...better yet read a few. Then come back to debate
| Quote: |
OUR country? America and Canada took their countries from the Native Americans. If it's anybody, it's theirs |
It's our country now, isn't it? At least for now. We took it from them. Just like the Mexicans are talking much of America back from us. And the Muslims are taking over parts of France. And the UK.
As for many of the immigrants in Korean, when they start causing problems, educated or not, the Koreans will ship them back to their own country, won't they? Same thing we should be doing.
Why is it when some of you don't like what is being said, you start yelling about the 'rules?'
As I said before, we AGREED to these rules by signing up. If you don't like the rules, then leave. You don't get to come here and ignore them.
Why not just debate the facts and stop whining?
That's rich coming from you, you've been whining about the poor downtrodden whites and interracial mixing.
Start with this:
White supremacy is not a good thing, JFYI
Why can't whites defend themselves? If black and Muslims and Jewish people and Latin Americans can defend themselves, why can't whites? Why is it when whites simple defend their right to exist they are labeled white supremacists?
Again that is not what you are doing. You are parroting a Neo-Nazi/Klan line. That is against the TOS.
Pause, take a deep breath and just answer the question with out a knee jerk reaction. You just might learn something. |
Umm...what question were you asking again? |
Valid points here. The mods aren't the government. Let's have freedom of speech without turning these forums into a free-for-all hatefest.
Are the mods listening? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| There is no freedom of speech on private property. If the mods remove his nonsense no freedom of speech is violated. This is a privately owned site and the owner may decide what is permitted content. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| There is no freedom of speech on private property. If the mods remove his nonsense no freedom of speech is violated. This is a privately owned site and the owner may decide what is permitted content. |
Ummm, that's what I was saying ... I was agreeing with what TUM said about the crap Zenas posted earlier. If you have a mod sock, instead of arguing with me you should probably log into your mod account and see about deleting a few of Zenas' offensive comments. Thanks for your kind attention, though. |
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Zenas
Joined: 17 May 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
| Zenas wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I like the hate crime idea. Anyone who commits a crime against someone simply because that person is black or gay or something, will almost certainly have "reason" and opportunity to commit similar crimes in the future. |
You're fairly naive. People have hated people different from themselves since time immemorial. That is why we had nation states, people of the five different races aren't meant to live together. They were created to live among their own kind. Simple as that.
|
Our "own kind" is humankind. Simple as that.
And I don't get the point of this line: "People have hated people different from themselves since time immemorial."
So? People have murdered and stolen from people of their own kind since the beginning too. We still try to prevent this behavior with systems of law and punishment. Murder has been around since the beginning. So has theft, rape, slavery and as you say, racism. That means we should not try to put a stop to these things? |
Be kinda nice to comment but it seems some people think some discussion that hits a nerve shouldn't be allowed.
You have your opinion about 'human kind,' I have mine. The research is in my favor, but the research doesn't get addressed. Instead ad hominem reigns and calls for the end of the debate because this is a 'private site.' What about the 'tolerance and acceptance' you types always talk about? The tolerance and acceptance you refer to is those who don't agree with you should tolerate and accept your opinion while they keep their mouth shut. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Zenas wrote: |
| flakfizer wrote: |
| Zenas wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I like the hate crime idea. Anyone who commits a crime against someone simply because that person is black or gay or something, will almost certainly have "reason" and opportunity to commit similar crimes in the future. |
You're fairly naive. People have hated people different from themselves since time immemorial. That is why we had nation states, people of the five different races aren't meant to live together. They were created to live among their own kind. Simple as that.
|
Our "own kind" is humankind. Simple as that.
And I don't get the point of this line: "People have hated people different from themselves since time immemorial."
So? People have murdered and stolen from people of their own kind since the beginning too. We still try to prevent this behavior with systems of law and punishment. Murder has been around since the beginning. So has theft, rape, slavery and as you say, racism. That means we should not try to put a stop to these things? |
Be kinda nice to comment but it seems some people think some discussion that hits a nerve shouldn't be allowed.
You have your opinion about 'human kind,' I have mine. The research is in my favor, but the research doesn't get addressed. Instead ad hominem reigns and calls for the end of the debate because this is a 'private site.' What about the 'tolerance and acceptance' you types always talk about? The tolerance and acceptance you refer to is those who don't agree with you should tolerate and accept your opinion while they keep their mouth shut. |
Oh no, you logged into the wrong account ... |
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