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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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 Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:27 am Post subject: Re: New & Improved Saudi Textbooks |
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| daskalos wrote: |
I don't hate Muslims, per se. I hate radical Islam's influence to the same extent that I hate radical Christianity's infuence. My hatred is catholic, encompassing all vilely repressive and hateful doctrines, wherever they occur.
I fear radical Christianity less because there is currently no government with any global power that is in complete thrall to its doctrines.
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Way to go Mises, you let 'im have it!!
As for all religions being evil, I will simply argue the following: in the 21st century, a country dominated by Christianity (of all denominations) will be subjected to choir singing on street corners. Imagine if the entire world was Mormon or Buddhist: we would act civil, protect our weak, and generally be very pleasant.
Now, imagine a country overrun with an equal number of muslims AND Christians. Will they live in harmony? Think Serbia and the Lebanese civil war. Now, imagine a country under total Islamic rule. There is a reason why Sudan, Afganistan, Iran, and Saudi Arabia have nonexistant tourism industries.
Radical Islamists have a long, long list of excuses; it is playing into their hands to accept these. We beleive in certain things: equality of the sexes, respect for all religions, human rights for all, etc., and radical Islam hates these things. Surrender is not an option. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| Nowhere does it say to persecute or hate Christians |
From the Book of Peace and Love
"Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other."
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, who do not forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, or acknowledge the Religion of Truth (Islam), (even if they are) People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizyah tribute tax in submission, feeling themselves subdued and brought low."
Where are the Saudis getting these ideas from? |
Yes, I read that. I don't recall what chapter that's from. Is it chapter 9:38? I don't have a Quran handy. As far as the Quran, the word being translated is Awlia, I believe which is not easy to translate. The Muslims were at war with various tribes. The word Awlia can mean allies i.e. don't trust them in the wars that you are fighting, which they were fighting.
It doesn't mean it is teaching Muslims to hate the Christians of their ethnicity which is what they were dealing with. You do know despite this text 11,000 Christian Arabs from Syria joined the fight against the Roman Christians. The Romans screwed up, so the Muslims did take
them as allies in a war. That's not quite though what these fanatical wahhabis follow. The wahhabis are what came from Ibn Taymiyah's thinking. Yes, we hear about the Copts being harassed in Egypt, but we don't hear the 10% Christians in Senegal being harassed. The Senegalese even once elected a Protestant, Leopold Senghor, as president.
Ibn Taymiyah was put in jail during the Middle Ages by other Muslims in the Middle Ages, in an age when the Sufis had a lot of power which is not the case now. The Sufis need a revival, in my opinion. Funding them would have been better than funding Wahhabis. The wahhabis do have a lot of strength in Pakistan since Pakistanis are poor. Think of how the fanatical Christians from the Deep South came to Korea and unfortunately gave us these zealous Korean Christian types.
They helped save poor Koreans and indoctrinated them, but ruined them in many ways.
When it comes to immigration in the West, I didn't think the open door policy of the 1960s was a great idea. I never said I am a proponent of that. I am conservative in several ways.
I don't agree with this linear analyis of a clash of civilizations. Why?
Christians and Muslims attacked each other respectively and sometimes Christians were on the defensive and sometimes they were on the offensive. The Turks when they were on the offensive weren't doing it because they wanted to conquer Christians. They were building an empire. They took much of Arabia and North Africa as well. Taking Vienna in some ways was like taking Algiers, so putting taking Constantinpole next to 9/11 doesn't make sense. When Europe launched the Crusades only one of them could be argued to have been defensive.
There were also times when the said Turks who were mentioned were allied to Europeans.
There is some form of clash in values. We have to concede that. Obviously, Muslims have a different culture. Having them in large numbers without thinking or finding programs of assimilation doesn't work, but I would also argue bringing millions of Mexicans into the US can have its drawbacks, because of the gap between Americans and Mexicans in terms of development. However, due to the low birth rate, people feel they have to accept immigrants. We can't force women to get married and have a bunch of babies. It won't happen. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:01 am Post subject: |
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| The wahhabis do have a lot of strength in Pakistan since Pakistanis are poor. Think of how the fanatical Christians from the Deep South came to Korea and unfortunately gave us these zealous Korean Christian types |
I am not a fan of Korean evangelism, but it should be obvious from looking at Korea and the US that 'radical' Christianity is a damn sight more tolerant and benign than radical Islam. Both the US and Korea have freedom of conscience and freedom of speech, both absent from most Muslim states. I have yet to hear of the plight of 'apostates' in either the US or Korea, whereas in some Islamic states disbelief in Allah can end in a death penalty. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| The wahhabis do have a lot of strength in Pakistan since Pakistanis are poor. Think of how the fanatical Christians from the Deep South came to Korea and unfortunately gave us these zealous Korean Christian types |
I am not a fan of Korean evangelism, but it should be obvious from looking at Korea and the US that 'radical' Christianity is a damn sight more tolerant and benign than radical Islam. Both the US and Korea have freedom of conscience and freedom of speech, both absent from most Muslim states. I have yet to hear of the plight of 'apostates' in either the US or Korea, whereas in some Islamic states disbelief in Allah can end in a death penalty. |
I agree with that. The only two countries where you can sort of get away with that is Syria and Lebanon. In Lebanon, you can convert to Christianity as long as it is one of the recognized Christian sects. In Syria, you can't make the conversion, but in some liberal areas you can
state you just don't care about religion and get away with it. However, you can't legaly go around doing that. You have to be stuck to your sect.
Yes, there is a serious problem in terms of having a religious identity imposed on people. Until recently, Bahais in Egypt had to put either Christian or Muslim on their cards, but recently an Egyptian court said they could leave it a blank which is a partial victory. Yes, apostates
are in danger in several countries. In Kuwait, Qambar Ali was in danger, though what he did wasn't illegal. If someone wants to believe in the tooth fairy, it should be right. I don't disagree there. |
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