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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
If America is so weak, why does NATO still stand? It is a voluntary alliance, Adventurer. Any member could walk away from it at any time. Or why does H. Chavez not have Latin America united against us, if not attacking us, then at least slapping us around with embargoes or other sanctions? Or why are our enemies not raiding our territory? Why is the Chinese govt asking how we feel about their still-under-construction navy's possibly policing the Western Pacific, rather than throwing us out, as we did the British Navy in the Caribbean after 1895? Etc., etc., etc.
"Weak" is like the Ottomans following the First World War -- or like the British in the Eastern Med following the Second World War, or in South Asia, for that matter.
Where is this weakness, Adventurer? We took down Saddam in a month. Are we mothballing aircraft carriers or retreating from the Middle East -- or more to the point: is Tehran throwing us out -- and I missed it or something? |
Before I go back to designing an exam for my overtested students (a little teach humor), I will say that you seem to be an all or nothing kind of guy on this issue. When I say or someone else says that the United States is in a somewhat weakened position, it doesn't mean we are Ahmedinejad.
America has been compromised by certain elites who have put short term profits ahead of a stable, healthy economic order. You have heard of millions of people losing homes, the fact that banks have declared bankruptcy. Yes, it has happened abroad as well, but it's worse in the U.S. The bubble bursting is serious. No one is stating that the United States is not a very powerful country. It is, indeed, a very powerful country.
No one is seeing the U.S. as we once knew it out the window. However, it could happen if people are not careful. You are taking too many things for granted, Gopher. Wall Street is being bailed out! This is serious business. How strong does it make one look when you have to have such a massive bail out?
The US Government relies way too much on debt financing. There is too much reliance on the fact that the dollar is a global currency and that people will keep on borrowing from the US ad infinitum. The US is not like the Ottoman Empire after World War I, but if the US Government keeps creating deficits the way it is, it is not inconceivable to have a Weimar like situation in the country. That's alarmist, I know, but, in theory, it is possible, and it would be conservative in behavior to place to safe-guards against that.
As far as your comment that if the US goes down, it will come back in a couple of centuries. I am not sure how to respond to such a comment. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| ...I will say that you seem to be an all or nothing kind of guy on this issue. When I say or someone else says that the United States is in a somewhat weakened position... |
No.
You said "America is weak." Pretty clear. Nice and absolute. There is "strong" and there is "weak" in such configurations. You said nothing about "a somewhat weakened position" until you revised your statement here. If you want to apply it retroactively, then at least pay me the courtesy of editing your earlier post.
I do not doubt that this is "serious business." When is government not "serious business," by the way? I do doubt the netizens and their proclivity to imagine and then aggressively assert the reality they want by typing it on their little screens and then posting it and defending it to the death on fora such as this one.
"America is weak," "America is finished." "Americans are racists." And so on. You know what? This will go on and on no matter what I post here. People are set in their worldviews and that is that.
As far as your "America has been compromised by the elites," "America will go down and then come back in a couple of centuries," I do not know where you get half of the stuff you post here, Adventurer, or how you arrive at these casual but very sure-of-yourself statements and conclusions, even though the first of the two I excerpted here sounds Marxist, which is probably where you got that, a pro-Marxist, antiAmerican professor or book. But whatever. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Should the American-led system decline or collapse, and should another power replace the United States, you can be sure of this: we will all be right back here within a century or two. Only then the Americans will get to be smug and allegedly sophisticated like the Western Europeans are today and some other poor nation will get to be the scapegoat and the villain... |
Gopher, you stated the above, did you not? And then you wondered where I got it from when I mentioned you saying that.
Now, as far as some elites having sabotaged the U.S., this is actually correct. It is not the middle class or working class who acted like financial privateers with no interest in the long-term health of economy, prudent regulations. It is pretty well-known that the US Government is too influenced by certain narrow interest groups representing certain financial interests.
One need not be a Marxist to state that. John Maynard Keynes certainly stated that, and he was not a Marxist. Adam Smith also believed in regulation, because some elites, as he knew and everyone knows, can behave irresponsibly. Now is that so hard to grasp? It is kind of like how we have laws regarding speeding. Why? It's so we can have less accidents on the road and reduce the consumption of gasoline. Furthermore, since you are in academia, you are aware, I am sure, of the words "noblesse oblige". It comes from the aristocracy of England who were horrified by the behavior of some in the bourgeoisie, and they saw how the economy was being exploited to exploit the commons, so to speak. Do you not know that many non-Marxists believe in regulation, and regulating the behavior of those engaged in the market?
Furthermore, why do you take things literally? If one states that America is weak, it does not mean it is no longer a superpower. That's an assumption you are making. It means in comparison to the past, America is weak. Financially, at the moment, America is weak. Are these not facts? Are you telling me America is not somewhat weak financially? I suppose I am reading the wrong news. In some ways, America is weak right now. Are you trying to give us the impression that America, right now, is robust economically and politically? If so, I do not agree.
Last edited by Adventurer on Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:44 am Post subject: |
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Adventurer: please read what I write before responding to it. I do not recognize what you said as having any relationship at all to what I said. I did go back and reread it after your post here, where you quoted my original words in context. But, honestly, you mischaracterized and misrepresented me so badly that I did not recognize it.
So no, I did not say "what you mentioned" at all. Do you truly take those words to mean that America will collapse and then come back in a couple of centuries?
Finally, after reading this, I will not discuss K. Marx with you. Or your improvised theories on "weak superpowers," either. Pass. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Adventurer: please read what I write before responding to it. I do not recognize what you said as having any relationship at all to what I said. I did go back and reread it after your post here, where you quoted my original words in context. But, honestly, you mischaracterized and misrepresented me so badly that I did not recognize it.
So no, I did not say "what you mentioned" at all. Do you truly take those words to mean that America will collapse and then come back in a couple of centuries?
Finally, after reading this, I will not discuss K. Marx with you. Or your improvised theories on "weak superpowers," either. Pass. |
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Gopher wrote:
Should the American-led system decline or collapse, and should another power replace the United States, you can be sure of this: we will all be right back here within a century or two. Only then the Americans will get to be smug and allegedly sophisticated like the Western Europeans are today and some other poor nation will get to be the scapegoat and the villain...
Gopher, read what you wrote again. Thanks. Those are your words.
Perhaps, you were being sarcastic, who knows. You weren't really making sense, and then accusing others of not making sense. Well, "Good luck with that". You are the one who brought up the Ottoman Empire. You take things literally, and you bring up Karl Marx when no one is discussing communism. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Based on your reading and then restating what I wrote, based on a series of exchanges with you where you have done the same, I would suggest you have a learning disorder, Adventurer.
Read what I wrote again. If you need me to write it more simplistically just say so. Actually, allow me to save you the trouble.
| Old style wrote: |
| Should the American-led system decline or collapse |
| New style wrote: |
| If the United States' Bretton Woods system declines or collapses |
| Old style wrote: |
| and should another power replace the United States, |
| New style wrote: |
| and if another nation-state or collection of nation-states replaces the United States, |
| Old style wrote: |
| you can be sure of this: |
| New style wrote: |
| then this will happen: |
| Old style wrote: |
| we will all be right back here within a century or two. |
| New style wrote: |
| the human race will go through the same thing again in a century or two |
| Old style wrote: |
| Only then |
| New style wrote: |
| Only this time around, in this case, where this other nation-state or collection of nation-states will have replaced the United States |
| Old style wrote: |
| the Americans will get to be smug and allegedly sophisticated like the Western Europeans are today |
| New style wrote: |
| the Americans, now excluded from leadership and thus responsibility and blame for all the world's problems, will be permitted to act smugly and call themselves "sophisticated" when moralizing and preaching against this other nation-state or collection of nation-states that has replaced the United States, just like the Western Europeans treat America and Americans today |
| Old style wrote: |
| and some other poor nation will get to be the scapegoat and the villain... |
| New style wrote: |
| and then, in this case, where Americans, now excluded from leadership and thus responsibility and blame for all the world's problems, will be permitted to act smugly and call themselves "sophisticated" when moralizing and preaching against this other nation-state or collection of nation-states that has replaced the United States, just like the Western Europeans treat America and Americans today, this other poor nation-state or collection of nation-states will play the part of the scapegoat and the villain, just as Spain, France, Britain, and now America has since the modern era began. |
You badly misinterpreted this when you alleged that I had predicted that America would collapse and then rise again in two hundred years.
Last edited by Gopher on Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:28 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Based on your reading and then restating what I wrote, based on a series of exchanges with you where you have done the same, I would suggest you have a learning disorder, Adventurer.
Read what I wrote again. If you need me to write it more simplistically just say so. |
Gopher, someone pointed out earlier that you don't know how to read properly and misread something I read a couple of days ago, and all you did was make excuses. Only you seem to have problems on this forum.
Maybe, you are the one with the disorder. I've always been an advanced reader. Perhaps, you should adjust your arguments and writing style. And, perhaps, you could use a few lessons in humility, haus. You act so arrogant. It's really annoying. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| Also when you allege that "America has been compromised by elites" you are restating a Marxist allegation and wholly relying on a Marxist worldview, whether you know it or not. Marxists have long made this argument, this is clearly their position. Start with Charles Sellers's Market Revolution. |
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sharkey
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| i would much rather have euros running the financial sectors than americans.. how much debt does america have ? almost a quadrillion dollars lol .. what a joke.. house of cards ... house of cards ..... |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| sharkey wrote: |
| i would much rather have euros running the financial sectors than americans.. how much debt does america have ? almost a quadrillion dollars lol .. what a joke.. house of cards ... house of cards ..... |
While I am not one to defend the reckless fiscal policies in the United States of late, Europe is not in much better shape. The Swiss (don't use euro, I know), who are supposed to be the most responsible of European states, could very well suffer the same fate as Iceland in the near future. UBS is the largest house of cards right now. France has not met her deficit targets once, nor has Italy and others.
I do not know what any new system will look like, though I've heard from the UK that a "return" to the principles of BW1 is desired. That would mean convertibility to gold for one of the major currencies. I really have no idea what they will dream up. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| sharkey wrote: |
| i would much rather have euros running the financial sectors than americans.. how much debt does america have ? almost a quadrillion dollars lol .. what a joke.. house of cards ... house of cards ..... |
While I am not one to defend the reckless fiscal policies in the United States of late, Europe is not in much better shape. The Swiss (don't use euro, I know), who are supposed to be the most responsible of European states, could very well suffer the same fate as Iceland in the near future. UBS is the largest house of cards right now. France has not met her deficit targets once, nor has Italy and others. |
Representative Democracies have a penchant for fiscal irresponsibility. There is immense and constant pressure for representatives to return money to their communities and constituencies.
An important current exception to this may be Japan. But in Japan (and China as well) savings is taken into excess and made into a vice. Which is not to say that much of their temperment is not sorely needed in the West. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: |
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There is no perfect balance. But a government should be able to run a surplus in those years without a difficult recession or other similarly difficult times.
Right now, we absolutely need a cultural shift away from this idea that access to debt = wealth. We can workout what exact amount of savings we need once we have something resembling savings. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Also when you allege that "America has been compromised by elites" you are restating a Marxist allegation and wholly relying on a Marxist worldview, whether you know it or not. Marxists have long made this argument, this is clearly their position. Start with Charles Sellers's Market Revolution. |
I have read Karl Marx's Das Kapital and some of Karl Marx's analyses regarding capitalism is correct, and he was influenced by more moderate socialists who came before him. Don't forget that. Not everything stated by Marx should simply be ignored. He was correct that the bourgeoisie can exploit the working class. However, Marx isn't the only one to speak of that. The aristocracy in England was alarmed when they saw the bourgeois industrialists of England exploiting the commons. We got the term "noblesse oblige" in England with the aristocrats seeing the need to protect the commons from exploitation. Thus, it's elites working with the commons to protect them for the greater good of society against some of the elites who would, naturally, harm them.
This was referred to not only by Karl Marx but also British aristocrats and Keynes. I certainly support capitalism, but like Keynes believe it must be regulated properly for the greater good of the people.
Here is a quote by Keynes:
"Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somehow work for the benefit of all."
John Maynard Keynes |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
[
This was referred to not only by Karl Marx but also British aristocrats and Keynes. I certainly support capitalism, but like Keynes believe it must be regulated properly for the greater good of the people. |
Regulations are indirect taxes. Regulations breed lawyers. The US already has enough regulations. |
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