Korean Job Discussion Forums

[JMO]

Noetic sciences and parapsychology? That list has the opposite effect to what you intended.

[Rteacher]

The Skeptical Investigations website is organized by the Association for Skeptical Investigation, the purpose of which is to promote genuine skepticism, the spirit of enquiry and doubt, within science. This includes an open-minded investigation of unexplained phenomena, a questioning of dogmatic assumptions, and a skeptical examination of the claims of self-proclaimed skeptics.
http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/aboutsi/index.htm

Sounds like a closed-minded, dogmatic assumption, "JMO", et al - especially since there are distinguished professors and universities listed...

Appears to be more good skeptical analysis on Randi here:
http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/exam/index.htm

[mindmetoo]

[Rteacher]

Well, in addition to his Ph.D, Brian Josephson (one of the Associates/Advisors of the Association for Skeptical Investigation) is a Nobel Prize-winning physicist and retired professor at the University of Cambridge.

Josephson is one of the more well-known scientists who say that parapsychological phenomena may be real, and is also interested in the possibility that Eastern mysticism may have relevance to scientific understanding.[3] He has said that one of his guiding principles has been nullius in verba (take nobody's word), saying that "if scientists as a whole denounce an idea, this should not necessarily be taken as proof that the said idea is absurd; rather, one should examine carefully the alleged grounds for such opinions and judge how well these stand up to detailed scrutiny."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_David_Josephson

Another affilialte, mathematician Ralph Abraham, is also a noted scholar on the cutting edge.

Ralph Abraham earned his Ph.D. from the University of Michigan in 1960, and held positions at Berkeley, Columbia, and Princeton. He has also held visiting positions in Amsterdam, Paris, Warwick, Barcelona, Basel, and Florence.

He founded the Visual Math Institute[1] at UC Santa Cruz in 1975, at that time it was called the "Visual Mathematics Project". He is editor of "World Futures" and for the "International Journal of Bifurcations and Chaos". Abraham is a member of cultural historian William Irwin Thompson's "Lindisfarne Association".

Abraham has been involved in the research frontier and the development of dynamical systems theory in the 1960s and 1970s. He has been a consultant on chaos theory and its applications in numerous fields, such as medical physiology, ecology, mathematical economics, psychotherapy, etc.[2]

Another interest of Abraham's concerns alternative ways of expressing mathematics, for example visually or aurally. He has staged performances in which mathematics, visual arts and music are combined into one presentation...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_David_Josephson

Great scientists tend to be open-minded - not closed-minded or dogmatic

Of course, there are fake pyschics - but they're often not much different from magicians (like Randi) who get paid for providing entertainment.

Whenever something is perceived as valuable - like diamonds - there is sure to be some fakes.

There may be lots of "fool's gold", but only a fool would conclude on that basis that there is no real gold.

[JMO]

It doesn't matter if he won a nobel prize.

Unless he won a Nobel prize demonstrating that elements of parapsychology actually exist, then it is irrelevant.

I agree with this quote.

[mindmetoo]

[Rteacher]

(Maybe that's why Amazon.com's stock has nosedived ... )

This forum is for the expression of opinion as well as fact, and I've stated my opinion - based on careful study of Vedic scriptures and philosophy - that there is no compelling reason not to accept ancient accounts of mystic yoga feats as factual.

The Vedic model of different cosmic ages appearing in cycles, with this age being the least advanced in terms of pyschic abilities of humans, is consistent with the observation that such things are certainly very rare in the modern context.

I think the point of that quote - which you [JMO] claim to agree with - is that the alleged grounds for rejecting evidence of extraordinary paranormal and pyschic phenomena given by scientists should also be scrutinizingly studied in detail to uncover any strong biases (philosophical or otherwise).

I don't agree that the burden of proof for testing such extraordinary claims should be "massive" - that seems like an unnecessary filter to protect status quo ideas.

Anyway, I've got to write up about 20 lesson plans by Thursday, so I won't have much time to research this topic in the meantime...

[Underwaterbob]

[JMO]

[mindmetoo]

[Leslie Cheswyck]

Oh hell, I'll be the first to post it.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=FFG--wvb9Xo&feature=related

[Rteacher]

No one on this thread has attempted to discredit this apparently good evidence that a human can indeed servive for extended periods without any food or water.

Of course, hard-core materialistic skeptics under the cloak of science would probably prefer to disect him like a frog before conceding that any supernatural component is involved.

Others will likely just ignore it, content to make puns like the fakir is a faker (despite no real evidence of that - as far as I could ascertain...)

Fasting fakir flummoxes physicians

By Rajeev Khanna
BBC correspondent in Ahmedabad


Doctors and experts are baffled by an Indian hermit who claims not to have eaten or drunk anything for several decades - but is still in perfect health.

Mr Prahlad Jani under surveillance in hospital

Prahlad Jani, a holy man, or fakir, who is over 70 years old, has just spent 10 days under constant observation in Sterling Hospital, in the western Indian city of Ahmedabad.

During that time, he did not consume anything and "neither did he pass urine or stool", according to the hospital's deputy superintendent, Dr Dinesh Desai.

Yet he is in fine mental and physical fettle, say doctors.

Most people can live without food for several weeks, with the body drawing on its fat and protein stores. But the average human can survive for only three to four days without water.

Followers of Indian holy men and ascetics have often ascribed extraordinary powers to them, but such powers are seldom subject to scientific inspection.

Mouthwash

"A series of tests conducted on him show his body mechanism is that of a normal person," said Dr Desai.

Mr Jani spends most of his time in a cave near the Ambaji temple in Gujarat state.

He has never fallen ill and can continue to live like this

Bhiku Prajapati, Mr Jani's devotee

He spent his 10 days in hospital in a specially prepared room, with a sealed-off toilet and constant video surveillance.

To help the doctors verify his claims, Mr Jani agreed to avoid bathing for his time in hospital.

The only fluid he was allowed was a small amount of water, to use as mouthwash.

One hundred millilitres of water were given to him, and then collected and measured in a beaker when he spat it out, to make sure none had been drunk.

Thank goddess

A statement from Ahmedabad's Association of Physicians says that despite no water entering his body, urine nonetheless appeared to form in his bladder - only to be re-absorbed by the bladder walls.


Hungry for blessings: Mr Jani receives a devotee in hospital

At the end of his confinement, doctors noted no deterioration in his condition, other than a slight drop in his weight.

"I feel no need for food and water," says Mr Jani, who claims he was blessed by a goddess at the age of eight and has lived in caves ever since.

He grew up in Charod village in Mehsana district and wears the dress of a devotee of the goddess Ambaji - a red sari-like garment, nose ring, bangles and crimson flowers in the hair.

He also wears the vermilion "tika" mark on his forehead, more often seen on married Hindu women.

His followers call him "mataji" or goddess.

More tests

He says he has survived several decades without food or water because of a hole in his palate.

Drops of water filter through this hole, he says, sustaining him.

"He has never fallen ill and can continue to live like this," said Bhiku Prajapati, one of Mr Jani's many followers.

"A hole in the palate is an abnormal phenomenon," says Dr Desai.

His colleague, Dr Urman Dhruv, told the BBC a full medical report is being prepared on Mr Jani's 10 days under observation.

Doctors say they cannot verify his claim to have not eaten or drunk for decades - but by observing his feat under laboratory conditions, they hope to learn more about the human body.

It is likely that doctors will want to examine Mr Jani again in order to solve the medical mystery he has presented them with.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3236118.stm

The amazing thing is that in India most people have seen, heard, or personally encountered so many real - as well as so many fake - yogis and mystics that an account like this is just taken in stride ...

[Underwaterbob]

[Rteacher]

It also requires critical thinking to weigh what's presented in a news report, including the credibility of the source and how quotes are referenced.

Most people rely on journalists for factual news accounts - regardless of whether they (the journalists) are experts in that particular field or not. The main thing is that they get the basic facts straight and present them objectively.

I think that only a fool - or an extremely biased person - would totally reject a clearly written report by a local BBC correspondent in a major Indian city.

Of course, a conspiracy-theorist might suspect an elaborate hoax - or a plot to discredit the materialistic world view...

[mindmetoo]

Randi tested one. They saw the guy leave his motel room and buy a bag of hot dogs. He claimed he only intended to smell them. Test over.