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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| I can think of several examples where the religious right has... |
Of course, you can. Yes, you can!
The left remains focused on the right's faults and shortcomings and has failed to fully appreciate until very recently that many on the left, especially those religiously conservative African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans who just voted for Barack Obama while also voting to deny homosexuals marriage in California, Arizona, and Florida, do indeed force their values down the electorate's throat when given the opportunity, too.
Were you sleeping? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Nice try, but I don't consider that a real example. For one thing, from my nasty elitist European perspective, you hardly have to be a leftist to vote Democrat. I suspect it was a somewhat rightwing mindset that compelled these guys to vote against gay marriage. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| I suspect it was a somewhat rightwing mindset that compelled these guys to vote against gay marriage. |
You are in denial.
People like Fidel Castro and a whole slew of others on the far, far left in Catholic Latin America and the Caribbean, to cite a dramatic example, do not coincide with your right-wing mindset in the least. And they have persecuted "los maricones" in their revolutions...
Also, to come closer to home, I found this ad and commentary through Andrew Sullivan's page...
Alleged Democratic campaign ad
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| Another gay-baiting ad from the Democrats, this one from Blue America PAC, a group headed by Howie Klein. The Courage Campaign and others have called for [Congressman David] Dreier to come out or at least oppose Prop 8. Nothing but silence. |
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:40 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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bangbayed
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| I suspect it was a somewhat rightwing mindset that compelled these guys to vote against gay marriage. |
You are in denial.
People like Fidel Castro and a whole slew of others on the far, far left in Catholic Latin America and the Caribbean, to cite a dramatic example, do not coincide with your right-wing mindset in the least. And they have persecuted "los maricones" in their revolutions... |
I think you're confusing people on the left who happen to be religious with left wing policy that is based on religious dogma. I agree with big_bird. I can't think of any religion-based political policy forwarded and supported by Democrats but not by Republicans.
Prop 8 in California (the gay marriage ban) was not campaigned for by Democrats. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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According to the ad I just posted, and the commentary that goes with it, that is not entirely true, Bangbayed. The Democrats, or elements thereof, seem to have exploited homophobia in their campaign to embarrass or unseat the allegedly homosexual Republican Congressman David Dreier. They thus contributed to Proposition 8's defeat in multiple, if indirect, ways.
More from Andrew Sullivan's page...
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05 Nov 2008 03:29 pm
The Grim Truth
Dan Savage:
I'm done pretending that the handful of racist gay white men out there�and they�re out there, and I think they're scum�are a bigger problem for African Americans, gay and straight, than the huge numbers of homophobic African Americans are for gay Americans, whatever their color.
For gay and lesbian black men and women, the blow is even harder. But this community needs to be engaged not demonized, and we haven't engaged enough. The black church is one of the most powerful forces fomenting homophobia in America, and has fostered attitudes that have literally killed countless gay black men. It's time to Act Up against those elements that p.c. liberals have been too timid to confront. For the sake of African American gay and lesbian people as much as anyone else. |
The Atlantic
But I will not waste more time arguing this point. If you choose to live in a world that reduces all religious evils to "the religious right," and that provokes defensiveness when the religious left, or merely that side of the left you prefer not to know about, is brought into the mix, then there is nothing I can say here that will change that. |
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bangbayed
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
According to the ad I just posted, and the commentary that goes with it, that is not entirely true, Bangbayed. The Democrats, or elements thereof, seem to have exploited homophobia in their campaign to embarrass or unseat the allegedly homosexual Republican Congressman David Dreier. They thus contributed to Proposition 8's defeat in multiple, if indirect, ways.
But I will not waste more time arguing this point. If you choose to live in a world that reduces all religious evils to "the religious right," and that provokes defensiveness when the religious left, or merely that side of the left you prefer not to know about, is brought into the mix, then there is nothing I can say here that will change that. |
Okay, some section of the Democratic party in Claremont, CA, a suburb 30 miles east of LA, used homophobia (which you equate with religious dogma?) to unseat and perhaps persuade the voters (in Claremont) to vote against Prop 8. Not really religion-based policy forwarded and supported by Democrats but not by Republicans though is it?I guess that's why you decided not to debate further. I agree, it's hard to come up with an example, isn't it. 
Last edited by bangbayed on Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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Sure.
Carry on. Posters were critiquing Sarah Palin and "the religious right" for "inciting hatred," I believe...
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bangbayed
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Sure.
Carry on. Posters were critiquing Sarah Palin for "inciting hatred," I believe... |
Your point? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| I can think of several examples where the religious right has... |
Of course, you can. Yes, you can!
The left remains focused on the right's faults and shortcomings and has failed to fully appreciate until very recently that many on the left, especially those religiously conservative African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans who just voted for Barack Obama while also voting to deny homosexuals marriage in California, Arizona, and Florida, do indeed force their values down the electorate's throat when given the opportunity, too.
Were you sleeping? |
I haven't gone through all your postings ont his matter, but I will agree here that plenty of people who vote for the Democrats, including African Americans, are quite often homophobic, and in some cases it's in connexion to religious dogma. If there weren't so many racial problems between whites and blacks, then many blacks would actually be in the GOP camp. However, you have to be careful when looking at religion, because many people in Europe are against gay marriage, and they aren't religious. Plenty of people who are somewhat secular oppose gay marriage and think marriage should only be between a man or a woman or only support civil unions. I don't think we should overly focus on the issue of gay marriage. You can be secular and oppose it. I am not necessarily for or against it. It's not a major issue for me. I am relatively secular.
Anyway, in the U.S. church attendance is high. I think about 40% go to church regulary versus 6% in England. There is a problem of maintaining the separation of church and state when you have religious elements who want to go into the private sphere of individuals. I am not saying church attendance is good or bad. In the end, it's how spirituality or religion are approached in a given society, region or denomination.
For example, Reform Jews are generally more open than their Orthodox Jewish counterparts. Lutherans are more open than Baptists in general.
America could use more of an approach to religion or spirituality that is not divisive and fosters unity. We can agree religion can divide people in significant ways. |
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