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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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 Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
that was well said..
but get ready..
3
2
1
here comes the Dawkins Street gang! |
"Help help, I'm being repressed!"
One of the oldest tricks in the book: cry repression before any argument occurs so you can say "See, look, I'm being repressed." when you receive any criticism.
As for this thread, if god is a contradiction, who (besides logic) says contradictions can't exist? Both the OP and Flakfizer's posts were well written; however, I don't think there's any way we can construe logic to prove the (non)existence of a god either way. |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
| It's clear that however God was described in the Bible was through the eyes of relatively primitive people. Probably their definitions of omnipotence and omniscience, as well as the creation of the universe, were much smaller than our current philosophical absolutes. If there is a god, which there probably isn't, it's probably nothing like the Bible. |
People use the bible as proof of the existence of God.
You just said the opposite .....
One can always make excuses. |
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Rebound
Joined: 04 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Juregen wrote: |
| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
| It's clear that however God was described in the Bible was through the eyes of relatively primitive people. Probably their definitions of omnipotence and omniscience, as well as the creation of the universe, were much smaller than our current philosophical absolutes. If there is a god, which there probably isn't, it's probably nothing like the Bible. |
People use the bible as proof of the existence of God.
You just said the opposite .....
One can always make excuses. |
I think he meant the bible, having been written by primitive people as such, could not be adequate proof for the existence of a primitive Christian God given today's very un-primitive world.
If I were a Christian, I'd just argue that men who possess ideals provided by our current philosophical absolutes are blasphemous and damned to hell on judgment day for questioning the nature of the universe as God created and and for questioning the truth and glory of our savior who died for our sins or some shiit like that. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Actually, this is a much better effort than we usually see from the Dawkins crowd. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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I think historical religions are primitive.
I mean the people who believed them or conceived them in those times were doing the best their mind could imagine or body could feel...
The east used more MIND and BODY religion which actually gave results by releasing chemicals in the brain to reach enlightenment etc...
Believing in GOD also made people high. Today you can take a PILL and talk to god! I know I have had my fair share of LSD and seen GOD hahahaa
Anyway my point is this... primative as it is; believing in GOD will take evolution of the mind to get closer to a more realistic view of god...
3000 years ago we believed god was some guy named Zeus
2000 years ago a man who sits in a cloud and runs the universe like a school teacher who needs to get laid...
Today we see god in many different possible ways...
With the whole computer age we are going through it can be possible we are all just living in a world like the SIMS! Think about it...
That�s just as believable today as it was believing in ZUES probably more so...
Or perhaps we are not perfect beings, because we are capable of thoughts and love, consciousness we were left here to live and breed by our creators... (Blade runner)
Maybe we were just experimental early prototypes.
I mean there are many probabilities which have as much a chance of being true as what�s happening to us now... origins of life as we know it is a still an impossibility but HEY! Even the long shoot has a chance!
I was watching CNN last night, and this Japanese firm has made a robot which looks just like a HUMAN... its amazing, it�s memorized speech has facial movements you name it!
30 years ago we had a scarecrow. today we have a robot which looks, like us and is capable of doing MANY things... all that in just 30 years!!
Advancement in science, one day let�s say, 100.000 years from now... from that simple robot in japan to perhaps being able to create a human being or animal from all science combined to create this cell needed to develop life from life etc..
Then we are the GOD of that creature right?
Then once we have mastered that feat! Then we will know that it�s highly likely we were also created...
So maybe through science the answer has been staring at us in the face the whole time.... Or maybe that�s impossible hahahahaha |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: |
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There are actually a few things in the OP that could easily be disproven, including the perfection not being able to make imperfection part. I don't have the time for that though (I don't know how Itaewon guy does it, especially if he lives in Itaewon) 
Militant atheists are just as annoying as Christians, but they don't (at least yet) try to push their agenda on me by creating strange, stupid laws or what not.
I do agree with underwaterbob in nothing gets some Christians off more than being repressed. Flakfizer made some good points, but some weren't well thought out. Same as the OP. In the end, who cares? Believe what you want, but you have to keep it to yourself and not push it on others.
Edited to add a "don't"
Last edited by laogaiguk on Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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meangradin
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:58 am Post subject: |
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I agree with Molly Bloom on this one; JH creates an inordinate amount of these type of posts. I get it. You don't believe in God and that all those that do are (fill in the blanks).
I wonder what would happen if JH saw me quietly reading my Bible one day. Would he verbally confront me; physically assault me? |
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red_devil
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| MollyBloom wrote: |
| Justin Hale, oh, I mean Spinoza, is almost as bad as a Jehovah's Witness with this indoctrination crap. You post more articles preaching your beliefs and trying to tell people you know the right way! |
Don't be so bitter that someone is more intelligent than you. Be happy and ignorant! Leave the heavy lifting to the capable! 
Ahhh yes, bitterness is indeed an ugly face to show.
Well when atheists dress up in little white shirts and black ties and go knocking door to door preaching about the absurdity of Christianity, THEN you might have a point. Until then....no.
Educated, mature adults know the difference between debate and arguing. Apparently, judging by the increasing defensiveness on here some of you don't.
| Quote: |
| Today�s religion will be the future�s mythology. Both believed at one time by many; but proved wrong by the clever. - Steven Crocker |
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| I have observed that the world has suffered far less from ignorance than from pretensions to knowledge. It is not skeptics or explorers but fanatics and ideologues who menace decency and progress. No agnostic ever burned anyone at the stake or tortured a pagan, a heretic, or an unbeliever. - Daniel Boorstin |
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| The finality of death is the coldest truth one must face. Religion makes the perfect distraction. - Anonymous |
| Quote: |
| Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make when in the presence of religious dogma. - Sam Harris |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| meangradin wrote: |
I agree with Molly Bloom on this one; JH creates an inordinate amount of these type of posts. I get it. You don't believe in God and that all those that do are (fill in the blanks).
I wonder what would happen if JH saw me quietly reading my Bible one day. Would he verbally confront me; physically assault me? |
I see a lot of threads started by people I judge to be idiots and simply don't read them. And define "inordinate amount".
Most atheists don't go around attacking people quietly reading their bibles. The opposite isn't quite the case. If I had a "god is dead" button on my backpack, I'm certain some christian idiot would assault me. |
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meangradin
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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"I'm certain some christian idiot would assault me."
IMO the person would be an idiot, irrespective of their beliefs. I dont really care for anyone who has a get in your face attitude. I certainly never try to force my views on anyone, however I sense that the OP does not share the same view. I feel that he is constantly beating this one beat on his drum; hence the feeling (and it may just be a observational/recall bias) of inordinate posts.
PS, I was going to delete my post as I should have just ignored the post, but thanks to you highlighting my reply, I can't) |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Itaewonguy wrote: |
I think historical religions are primitive.
I mean the people who believed them or conceived them in those times were doing the best their mind could imagine or body could feel...
The east used more MIND and BODY religion which actually gave results by releasing chemicals in the brain to reach enlightenment etc...
Believing in GOD also made people high. Today you can take a PILL and talk to god! I know I have had my fair share of LSD and seen GOD hahahaa
Anyway my point is this... primative as it is; believing in GOD will take evolution of the mind to get closer to a more realistic view of god...
3000 years ago we believed god was some guy named Zeus
2000 years ago a man who sits in a cloud and runs the universe like a school teacher who needs to get laid...
Today we see god in many different possible ways...
With the whole computer age we are going through it can be possible we are all just living in a world like the SIMS! Think about it...
That�s just as believable today as it was believing in ZUES probably more so...
Or perhaps we are not perfect beings, because we are capable of thoughts and love, consciousness we were left here to live and breed by our creators... (Blade runner)
Maybe we were just experimental early prototypes.
I mean there are many probabilities which have as much a chance of being true as what�s happening to us now... origins of life as we know it is a still an impossibility but HEY! Even the long shoot has a chance!
I was watching CNN last night, and this Japanese firm has made a robot which looks just like a HUMAN... its amazing, it�s memorized speech has facial movements you name it!
30 years ago we had a scarecrow. today we have a robot which looks, like us and is capable of doing MANY things... all that in just 30 years!!
Advancement in science, one day let�s say, 100.000 years from now... from that simple robot in japan to perhaps being able to create a human being or animal from all science combined to create this cell needed to develop life from life etc..
Then we are the GOD of that creature right?
Then once we have mastered that feat! Then we will know that it�s highly likely we were also created...
So maybe through science the answer has been staring at us in the face the whole time.... Or maybe that�s impossible hahahahaha |
This is an inappropriate analogy, because the Japanese robot thingie is created fully-formed in its current state. Humans and all life on Earth can be clearly demonstrated to have evolved from simpler forms over millennia.
| flakfizer wrote: |
| I feel deep down that they are read by the same dozen people who, whichever side they are on, maintain their belief system after participating in these threads. |
I'll certainly maintain my belief system after reading that rubbish! Just kidding, Flakfizer. It was an interesting, good attempt at a refutation. I didn't agree with any of it, but it was challenging and I felt your point about perfection was your best point, even though it was an appeal to emotion.
| meangradin wrote: |
| I wonder what would happen if JH saw me quietly reading my Bible one day. Would he verbally confront me; physically assault me? |
Don�t be ridiculous.  |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Well when atheists dress up in little white shirts and black ties and go knocking door to door preaching about the absurdity of Christianity, THEN you might have a point. Until then....no.
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Actually athiests don't need to door knock to sell thier ideas. They do it through the education system, either in High School or at University.
I mean most people learnt about atheism and their ideas in those two places. I wish that the Professors and teachers had just provided the two arguments and let you choose.
Though most seemed rather intent on converting me to the idea of atheism and made it quite clear their feelings on religion and christianity.
Didn't you experience the same? My personal feeling is that we notice those issues that most grate against our own beliefs and therefore we are more aware of some one preaching the gospel when we don't like it or someone who insults us because they believe in atheism and we don't.
I personally dont have a problem with certain atheists, but atheism of Communist Russia, China and Cuba has been a problem for religious people and I hope that we in liberal countries never follow their practices.
Though some of the language today sounds the same as what was used in Russia against the religious in the 1950's, so I am not so confident that freedom of religion will last much longer in many countries. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
Actually athiests don't need to door knock to sell thier ideas. They do it through the education system, either in High School or at University.
I mean most people learnt about atheism and their ideas in those two places. I wish that the Professors and teachers had just provided the two arguments and let you choose. |
Only two? Reminds me of this story;
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Lightning
The subject was philosophy. Nietzsche, a philosopher well known for his dislike of Christianity and famous for his statement that 'god is dead', was the topic. Professor Hagen was lecturing and outside a thunderstorm was raging. It was a good one. Flashes of lighting were followed closely by ominous claps of thunder. Every time the professor would describe one of Nietzsche's anti-christian views the thunder seemingly echoed his remarks. At the high-point of the lecture a bolt of lightning struck the ground near the classroom followed by a deafening clap of thunder. The professor, unconcerned, walked to the window opened it and starting jabbing at the sky with his umbrella. He yelled, you senile son of a bitch, your aim is getting worse. Suffice it to say that some students were offended by his irrevrant remark and brought it to the attention of the Department Head. The Department Head in turn took it to the Dean of Humanities who called the professor in for a meeting. The Dean reminded the professor that the students pay a lot of tuition and that he shouldn't unnecessarily insult their beliefs. Oh, says the professor, and what beliefs are those? Well, you know the Dean says, most students attending this University are Christians. We can't have you blaspheming during class. Surely says the professor, the merciful God of Christianity wouldn't throw lightning bolts. It's Zeus who throws lightning bolts. Later the Dean spoke with the Department Head, and said, "the next time you have a problem with that professor you handle it, and let him make an ass out of you instead." |
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2006/06/lightning.html
| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Though some of the language today sounds the same as what was used in Russia against the religious in the 1950's, so I am not so confident that freedom of religion will last much longer in many countries. |
Such as? |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
Most atheists don't go around attacking people quietly reading their bibles. The opposite isn't quite the case. If I had a "god is dead" button on my backpack, I'm certain some christian idiot would assault me. |
Another stupid quote by the village idiot!
and if I had a button on my backpack saying " CANADIANS ARE REDNECKS" I'm sure I would have some idiot canadian assault me! |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
This is an inappropriate analogy, because the Japanese robot thingie is created fully-formed in its current state. Humans and all life on Earth can be clearly demonstrated to have evolved from simpler forms over millennia.
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I actually did say, and then maybe 100.000 years after that robot creation, maybe science will figure out a way to create life from a cell which can reproduce life! 100.000 years is a long time especially since we have science and technology.. if thats not long enough how about 200.000 years.,, anyway even if it takes a million years .. if its possible then we have to ask the question, well we have created life which can evolve does that mean someone created us?
a million years is not that long really when the universe is billions.(probably trillions years old) we cant really know..
so itf some other species has evolved 100.000 million years before us, and has managed to do what it is I said.. then welll....why not!? |
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