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Yaya
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| Josh_Nyc wrote: |
actually, i started this thread. people, feel free to post your opinions regardless of sources or what not. this thread isn't meant to _prove_ anyone right or wrong, and i don't want this thread to end up to be a collection of boring scientific literature.
obviously there is no hard evidence that supports either case. i just want to hear your insight. |
I'll say that the obsession with education is why Koreans do better than others, and that it's a cultural thing. Not all Koreans do well, mind you, but it's the Confucian emphasis placed on education and scholarship that is the driving force behind them.
Thing is, later generations of Asians in the US start to perform the same as other people, and I guess it's because they lose that focus on education unlike their forefathers.
Another thing I've heard is that a child inherits his or her IQ (as his or her chances of going bald) from the mother, so well, if you want smart kids, having a smart woman bear them wouldn't hurt. |
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Psy
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Location: Hongdae
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| Yaya wrote: |
| Another thing I've heard is that a child inherits his or her IQ (as his or her chances of going bald) from the mother, so well, if you want smart kids, having a smart woman bear them wouldn't hurt. |
Hmm, I've heard of this from somewhere too. (minus the bald part) Something like, intelligence is determined by the mother's genes. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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Well, there's a dilemma for the guys:
How smart can she really be if she wants to marry you? 
[apologies to Groucho Marx] |
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mokpochica
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
Well, there's a dilemma for the guys:
How smart can she really be if she wants to marry you?
[apologies to Groucho Marx] |
But for me...it's great to know that my kids will be smart  |
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Josh_Nyc
Joined: 09 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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do you harvest eggs? can i buy one?
| mokpochica wrote: |
But for me...it's great to know that my kids will be smart |
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Yaya
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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The title of this post is "How Do Koreans Do It? Academically." I think that's misleading. Yes, Koreans can do it academically but do you really need a university degree to set up a dry cleaners, grocery store, liquor store or carry-out? That has been the way to the American dream for a lot of Koreans.
I say it's persistence and resilience. There was a movie that had the line "Koreans are tough all over - north, south and South Central." Year after year, Koreans overseas endure crime, violence, language and cultural barriers and other problems that a lot of people wouldn't be able to tackle. Dozens are gunned down in hold-ups and robberies. Some say the men's military training has something to do with their toughness in those situations (witness how many shop owners in LA armed themselves against looters during the 1992 riots, and those were the ones whose stores were saved). |
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Josh_Nyc
Joined: 09 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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i don't think you got the general subject of the thread. did you even read the OP or kiwiboy's myriad of quotes? was asking how koreans are able to excel and accomplish some pretty amazing feats in academics.
and to answer your questions, no, you don't need a university degree to set up a dry cleaners, grocery store, liquor store or carry-out. according to a close korean friend, those korean-americans chose that path due to their entrepeneurial spirit and were willing to take the risk of not pursuing a career based on what they studied in school in hopes of running a successful private business. they just happen to have formal university degrees since the majority of immigrants who came in the 70's and 80's were required to be "skilled and educated" in order to get greencards and visas.
| Yaya wrote: |
The title of this post is "How Do Koreans Do It? Academically." I think that's misleading. Yes, Koreans can do it academically but do you really need a university degree to set up a dry cleaners, grocery store, liquor store or carry-out? That has been the way to the American dream for a lot of Koreans.
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little mixed girl
Joined: 11 Jun 2003
Location: shin hyesung's bed~
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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......
Last edited by little mixed girl on Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Yaya
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Josh_Nyc wrote: |
i don't think you got the general subject of the thread. did you even read the OP or kiwiboy's myriad of quotes? was asking how koreans are able to excel and accomplish some pretty amazing feats in academics.
and to answer your questions, no, you don't need a university degree to set up a dry cleaners, grocery store, liquor store or carry-out. according to a close korean friend, those korean-americans chose that path due to their entrepeneurial spirit and were willing to take the risk of not pursuing a career based on what they studied in school in hopes of running a successful private business. they just happen to have formal university degrees since the majority of immigrants who came in the 70's and 80's were required to be "skilled and educated" in order to get greencards and visas.
| Yaya wrote: |
The title of this post is "How Do Koreans Do It? Academically." I think that's misleading. Yes, Koreans can do it academically but do you really need a university degree to set up a dry cleaners, grocery store, liquor store or carry-out? That has been the way to the American dream for a lot of Koreans.
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Yes, I did read your original post. I said the TITLE of the post is misleading. I think what you meant to write was "How do Koreans do it academically?" as opposed to how you wrote it, that's all. The original title was "How do Koreans do it? Academically" could've been interpreted as Koreans are successful because of scholarship.
Many of the Koreans who immigrated to the US were college educated and some had advanced degrees that were not recognized by the US. Not only that, they couldn't speak English well enough to compete for many jobs so they opened small businesses. But oh well, they came to dominate certain businesses - dry cleaners (the No. 1 trade publication for dry cleaning in the US has a Korean-language version), fresh produce markets and the like. |
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crazylemongirl
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Location: almost there...
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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actually I beileve that 'intelligence' is very hard concept to cross culturally compare to and measure.
I remember this study that was done on some south american street kids who were vendors. They could do complex calcuations in their head, factoring prices for inflation etc. that most kids wouldn't be able to do, yet take them out of their natural enviroment and they had trouble doing the simplist of equations with pencil and paper.
Again the whole nature versus nuture thing is really a chicken and egg thing. I think that even if genetics plays a role in IQ the child's enviroment whether their surrounded by books and parents who will take on that important role as first teachers can overcome any minor genetic deficencies. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
actually, i started this thread. people, feel free to post your opinions regardless of sources or what not. this thread isn't meant to _prove_ anyone right or wrong, and i don't want this thread to end up to be a collection of boring scientific literature.
obviously there is no hard evidence that supports either case. i just want to hear your insight. |
You're right, it's your thread, however I thought we were going to get into an interesting debate, and it seems like its not going to happen. As usual things will decend into people spouting off what they feel, or half remembered truths from school, or annecdotal stuff. That's fine for most threads. But you asked a very academic question with deep scientific ramifications.
This thread could prove to be the ground of some very fertile and deep debate, but not if people don't stick to the topic and use sourses. Coffeecup pushed things in the direction that the OP had only hinted at "Is intelligence genetic?" "Is it racial?" "What is intelligence?" "Are IQ tests valid?" ... these are the questions that come up out of this thread that interest me. I'm happy to take it further. I believe that coffeecup is a eugenisist, and I feel it's important that he is publically challenged in a suitably serious way on that. However, if you all want to turn this into a little chat corner, that's fine, I'll go elsewhere, and maybe post the topic myself. |
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jaebea
Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Location: SYD
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:41 am Post subject: |
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Just for my 2c, I think I can give a unique perspective on this angle, since I've experienced some of the things josh_nyc has mentioned in the OP first hand.
Apologies in advance to kiwiboy and coffeecup who are pushing the thread towards a very interesting direction. Feel free to resume the argument after my bit.. :)
The mindset of the Korean immigrant is like many others. There is an incredible desire to succeed. Their success can be directly measured and compared with other immigrants by the progress of their children. This is what many first generation Korean immigrants believe.
As a child of first generation immigrants, I was always told of the importance to succeed, with a multitude of reasons why. The pride you see in Korean immigrants, a lot of it is a farce, because we inherently know that due to issues such as the language barrier, and racial prejudice, we will always be on the back foot.
However, Korean immigrants realise that many places that they immigrate to, is far of meritorcratic (is that even a word?) than back in Korea. The success of an individual is based on that individual's performance and own merits, rather that the people you know. This gives every immigrant a lot of hope, further fuelling the desire for achievement.
Jesus, I really should edit my posts a lot more, since anything over a few sentences lack any flow of logic or coherent structure of argument, but bear with me as I get my writing legs back. My mind always seems to be two steps ahead of my fingers.. :)
jae. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 8:38 am Post subject: |
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We are a single interbreeding species, and we have been at least as long as our ancestors have been fully anatomically modern humans.
That doesn't deny that specific hereditary human traits show distributions along geographic clines. Of course they do. Those traits, however, still are subject to independent assortment. The clines exhibited by two independent traits cannot be expected to be exactly the same.
The facts of variation in human herditary traits are interesting, and they can have important consequences. I'm all for studying them. But I don't expect that we'll get very far if we assume a priori that the distribution of those traits must coincide with the breeding boundaries of isolated populations.
Once more, the clines overlap, but they do not duplicate each other. No human population -- NONE !!! -- known to the archaeological and historical record has ever maintained itself in reproductive isolation from its neighbors for more than a few centuries.
In biological terms, it's a fair conclusion that there are no "pure races" in Homo sapiens AND THERE NEVER HAVE BEEN.
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http://danny.oz.au/communities/anthro-l/debates/race-iq/ |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| No zoologist who wanted to keep his name would ever name three subspecies in a population with as little intra-specific variation as Homo sapiens sapiens. In comparison to most groups, we are an *extremely* homogeneous population |
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What exactly are you talking about when you say Blacks, Whites and Asians... I personally can't seem to find one iota of continuity between skin color and genetic makeup.
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Liz Snyder
SJSU Dept. of Anthropology |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:47 am Post subject: |
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"IQ" stands for "intelligence quotient." A person's IQ is supposed to be a measure of that person's intelligence: the higher the IQ number, the greater the intelligence. This is inaccurate, however, since it assumes that there is only one kind of intelligence. Most people recognize that there are some people with fantastic memories, some with mathematical minds, some with musical genius, some with mechanical expertise, some with good vocabularies, some good at seeing analogies, some good at synthesizing, some at unifying, etc. Some people excel at more than one of these behaviors. It would be more accurate to speak of human intelligences than of intelligence. An IQ test, therefore, should be considered a measure of some kinds of intelligence, but not all. The most accurate claim one can make about an IQ test is that it measures IQ.
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http://skepdic.com/iqrace.html
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| However, there is no such thing as a racial gene or set of race genes any more than there is such a thing as an intelligence gene or set of intelligence genes. |
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| It should be obvious, however, by the tremendous variation in intelligences among individuals of any race, that environment is a much more significant determinant of racial features than it is of intelligence. This seems to imply that whatever genetic differences exist among the races are most likely due to natural selection and sexual selection. It also seems to imply that the notion of a "pure" race is an absurdity. |
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| "There's about a 15 percent genetic variation between any two individuals," according to science writer Deborah Blum. "Less than half of that, about 6 percent, is accounted for by known racial groupings....A randomly selected white person, therefore, can easily be genetically closer to an African than another white" (Blum). |
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| What isn't true is the notion that whole races of people have sets of genes which make them as a group more intelligent than other races. |
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| If you want to find out why Asians are over-represented in California's universities while blacks and Hispanics are underrepresented, you will probably search in vain for a genetic answer. Those who are interested in such things would do better to look at family structure, ethnic traditions, and social conditions. |
http://skepdic.com/iqrace.html
I note with interest that Sir Coffeecup has not returned to this thread. I have been diligent, I have spend significant time searching the net and reading through pages and pages of stuff to find scientific points relevant to the debate. I have done this reading so that you don't have to wade through the pages I did, and I have posted only the choicest relevant sections. I have been honest and cited all sourses. I have found quite conclusively that from a standpoint of genetic science the concept of eugenics has been thoroughly disproved over and over. The very idea of a pure genetic race is disredited by modern genetics. The link between genes and intelligence is also discredited. I have shown all of this, in a concise and honest manner, and yet Sir Coffeecup does not even have the dignity to appear and recognise my efforts. I'm dissapointed. On the other hand, I won a by thoroughly convincing knock out victory in the fourth round, hopefully ending Sir Coffeecups career as a fraudeulent racial supremist permanantly. |
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