Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Mr. Pink]

[Scott in HK]

Not speaking korea is what made it easy for me...i just kind of barged in...and starting talking away in english...pointing down the hallway...and took his attention away from the student....finally the teacher follow me down the hall...and into the teacher's room where he helped me 'turn on' the vcr....

except for the english teachers who knew why i did it...i told them...the rest of the school thought i was some complete idiot who couldn't turn on a vcr...i don't think even the student even knew what i was doing...

[fidel]

Actually I do work at a boys only school and to go one step futher it's a commercial high school where they learn all sorts of trades. I suppose beaten is a pretty strong word but hey the teacher in question made the class go down on their hands and knees, sticks their asses in the air and took one handed swings. I know it hurt a lot as the kids jumped up immediately wailing and holding their butts. By kids I mean 17/18/19 year olds a large percentage of whom are joining the army on graduation.

These students aren't the type you would see in an English Hogwan after school they are more likely to be working in the part time jobs, drinking or hanging in PC bangs all night. A teacher once told me that many are glue sniffers. I don't kow if thats true but when you have 40% of the class trying to sleep through the school day it makes you wonder.

Why you say don't I step in. Well I took issue with it soon after arriving and was told in no uncertain terms to butt out. It's what they do in Korea and the parents give the school their full support. Otherwise these few over the top incidents the students are usually just whacked on the butt or hands. I don't say I condone it, it's just what happens.

[Mr. Pink]

[Scott in HK]

The OP's longer more detailed post is something that is quite easy to believe. I don't think the OP had any nefarious plans in posting the first post...but it is a clear example where 'unsaid details' make a world of difference.

The first post would leave readers with the impression that 'brutality is commonplace in most high schools in Korea. I don't think this true. The second makes clear that the 'students' of commercial schools who are often one step from the military, the street or the nearest 'gang' have strict discipline imposed on them when they are in school.

And I don't anyone would expect to be able to change the discipline routines of these schools.

[fidel]

Both actually. I teach students and the teachers. And yes the level is BASIC. I've taught 7 year olds with a greater understanding of English than the students at my school. The problem is that many come from the lowest socio-economic class. Their parents ( if they have two, 30% don't) don't have the cash to spend on private English education and are just struggling to survive. Over the past year I can count on both hands the number of times a parent has come to school to have teacher parent discussions. These kids aren't academically inclined, but many excell at the trade they choose. At times I have hated teaching at the school, but it can also be rewarding. Plus, as those of you who teach in public schools know, the low amount of classes you teach is ridiculous. Classes are often cancelled for such reasons as;
Health Day ( they get their blood pressure checked and then are sent home.
Cleaning day (Self explanatory, student clean theri classes and the hallways)
Decorate your classroom day
Speech day
Concert day
Sport day
Concert day
Go to another school day
Teachers can't be assed teaching, go home day ( of which their are many)
Plus winter/ summer and spring vacations.

On a normal week I'll to lucky to teach 12 40 minute lessons.

[rapier]

I definitely condemn being kicked in the balls and being beaten with a baseball bat. These two are so obviously dangerous and harmful, to say the least, and should be a police matter for the school..
The rest I see no problem with.
At school I was punished with the cane and the ruler/ stick. Never did me any harm. Am i more prone to violence? No. in fact probably a lot less prone to it than people who've grown up with no physical punishment whatsoever. In my home country we were well disciplined- and as a result had respect for teachers and eachother, and generally high grades..fighting did happen of course, but it was far less commonplace than when i went to school in England for example. the schoolkids there were shocking.
You guys are too soft. You can't always waste time trying to reason with kids- they're unreasonable by nature. You can't waste time preparing long detentions or homework as punishments either, if you have a schedule like mine. A short, sharp shock like the ruler across the knuckles, or the cane is a far simpler and more effective punishment than the wacky mind-control games dreamt up by frustrated teachers in Korea.
Perhaps the reason kids go so crazy in the hagwons is because they know nothing will happen, there is no ultimate deterrent..this also breeds a general disrespect towards foreign teachers but not to Korean teachers. Very wrong.
but of course, nobody listens...

[Scott in HK]

Resorting to coporal punishment is not an effective to keep control...if it were...then the schools it is used in would have perfect discipline records after the first month...but they don't...the discipline problems remain all year...year after year....it is just easier for teachers....they don't have to really take any responsibility at all...they smack the students....and go on...

coporal punishment has been limited or banned in most countries...not just because it is hypocritical...your boss can't smack you at work...you have rights...but because it simply was not effective...used for years and nothing ever got better....

Schools around the world are trying to come up with better systems of discipline....a lot are crazy....the search goes on...but in the end I would say that if you have to resort to violence as a teacher to solve your classroom problems, then you have failed as a teacher....

[rapier]

I beg to differ.
A couple of canings at the start of term usually deterred any BS for the rest of semester. Kids need to know their boundaries. Are you seriously suggesting that we raise kids with the idea that bad behavior has no penalty? That's simply unrealistic and disatsrous.
I reckon that there is a relation between a lack of physical discipline in schools, and an explosion in violence in society at large- the opposite of what some people here are espousing.

[Scott in HK]

At what point did I say there should be no consequences for bad behaviours. All bad behaviour should have consequences...the consequence should not be a violent one. There are other ways to punish students.

[rapier]

I have no statistics and flowcharts to hand: but I can speak only from my own observations and experience...
My early schooling was at govt. schools in Zimbabwe. We had a high standard of education, and drew students from all over Africa. We had high rates of academic and sporting success...most of our students, black and white, went on to rewarding careers or university. Discipline was instilled early on: no cheek towards teachers, take a pride in your appearance etc...the very worst crime a kid committed to my memory was smoking- for which he was expelled...
Transplant to school in 80's England: No corporal punishment, few sports, the kids dressed as they wanted, glue sniffing, fighting and disrespect for teachers rife: kids used to brake school windows for a laff- the penalties were pretty laughable- detention and so on. The teachers were powerless. My grades went down. There was a culture of violence, that started in the playground, out of school, into the pubs and nightclubs, and on into trouble with the police..All because there was nobody to adequately curb the kids worst excesses at a young age..
Here in korea last week, one of my kindergarten boys launched into hitting one of the girls. I pulled him off, shook him, and dragged him to the supervisor, who gave hima sound comforting/counselling session.This is the beginning.. the way to get attention is create disruption.
I think your idea of violence is flawed: to me, violence is out of control anger and physical action aimed at hurting/harming someone. Discipline is controlled action, without anger, aimed at directing a person in the right direction. its a positive thing. Its over quickly and the offence is forgotten.

[Mr. Pink]

[Scott in HK]

Mr. Pink


Personal examples are nice and all...but how do your personal examples of success explain all the schools that had physical punishment and still had discipline problems.

And futhermore...it is likely that there were many factors that went into the success of the two schools...i doubt that the threat of being caned/beat was the only reason the students behaved in the school. If it was then I would hate to send my kids to a school where fear was there only motivation for being good. Once they leave school and that fear is gone....how will they react.

There is a school in the states that invites the parents of the trouble kids to come to school and sit with them for the entire day. That school has very few problems as well. And all accomplished without violence.

Our school expelled you...or suspended...we had very few problems throughout the year. Our school nor any other school in my district used corporal punishment and had no serious problems.

Discipline problems in schools ususally exist because of the community the school is found in. It exists due to the home conditions of the students who go there. My school was in a middle class neighbourhood. No serious discipline problems regardless of the form of punishment used. Schools in the inner city had more problems and no amount of caning or beatings were going to change that.

It is shortsighted to think that discipline problems exist because of what goes on in school alone....

[Korea Newfie]

[Scott in HK]

Not exactly ignorance as the original poster amended his story somewhat to a whole class getting beaten up with a bat...to a whole class getting whacked with one hard one on the ass...which I do believe.....