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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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| To what degree do they deny the painfully obvious? |
| All of the time they deny the painfully obvious |
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34% |
[ 9 ] |
| Most of the time they deny the painfully obvious |
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42% |
[ 11 ] |
| Sometimes they deny the painfully obvious |
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15% |
[ 4 ] |
| Rarely do they deny the painfully obvious |
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7% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 26 |
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Cthulhu
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Oh...sorry guess when one thinks of lying the first thing one must think of THE GOOD OLD USA. HEY, I am not the one who brought up a specific country.
Point being made...is the quick way it turns into ....USA sucks...sneer sneer...smug smug....EVEN FOR ONE (i.e. me) who finds George Bush aborrent I get tired of the ease in which any topic can be veered to the never ending .....AMERICA IS EVIL....NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH !
What amazes me is no matter what the subject......it can be turned into AMERICA EVIL VS. Everyone else who apparently isn't.....ever.
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I too think someone being a bit thin-skinned.
I took desultude's comment as an attempt to show that Korea isn't the only nation that engages in it. Canada does it too, but they aren't having a State of the Union address tonight. Were the newest Canadian twit in power, i.e., Paul Martin, having a budget speech tonight I'd have gone with that. With sarcasm, timing can be important. |
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humanuspneumos
Joined: 08 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:16 pm Post subject: Canada, USA, Britain.... |
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Bringing Canada, USA, Britain... into the conversation is for a later poll in a question like, "What do these countries feel so ashamed about that they would twist the obvious to the point of painfully obvious?" As for here- the question began as to what degree teachers or whoever feel things are denied.
Also- I wonder if the apparent complex is one of "We only want to export good conversations about our country and Koreanism." I don't think anyone living in Korea could say that they don't out-do us on many levels. |
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Harpeau
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Location: Coquitlam, BC
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| peppermint wrote: |
| That said, I find both the KT and the KH have very anti Korean slants sometimes. Almost all of their articles about Korea show the country in a very negative light. |
Editorally, over the last few months, many in power over the papers seem to be Westerners. I'm wondering if that might explain this sentiment?
Concerning what the OP said, I'm wondering if it might be contingent on whether or not the Korean person has had much experience traveling abroad. The ones who've traveled extensively seem to be more open to criticism as they see similar problems everywhere.
The other thing that I've noticed is that many Koreans take comments seriously because there is an extension between the mountain and that person. A "hall of mirrors" if you will~ that car is you, that mountain is you, that suit is you. I might say, what a beautiful mountain! A Korean might respond~ thank you!. Not at all unusual. Everything seems to connect and that might explain why they might take criticism personally.
Interesting thread.
Cheers!
Harpeau |
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Zed
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Shakedown Street
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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Harpeau happened to mention:
| Quote: |
| Editorally, over the last few months, many in power over the papers seem to be Westerners. |
I think this is reasonable. In all my time here I can't recall seeing a Korean reading either of these papers. I'm sure that the odd one does but considering what I've seen...... |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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I get as much of my impression about the Korean approach from outside the classroom as in. But whether I'm in or out of the classroom I certainly don't take the beligerent approach you outlined and I still end up getting certain repeating patterns in the Korean response:
Denial of, or minimisation of the following...
homosexuality
prostitution
rape
domestic abuse
pre marital sex
america's positive contribution here both past and present
The things they don't seem to have a problem acknowledging are corruption, boy baby preference, abortion, divorce, sexism.
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Kiwiboy:
I was not saying that you specifically take a belligerent approach. Remember, I was responding to the OP, who wondered if the "cover up", as he called it, existed on a national scale. I used the example of sex selective abortion, which my students acknowledge as a "problem", to show that I don't think Koreans always minimize their nation's shortcomings in conversation with foreigners.
As for the other examples on your list, I must admit I do find it hard to believe that the Koreans you talk to always deny the existence of prostitution, or try to write it off as simply a foreigner driven industry. I've heard quite a few Koreans, both inside and outside the classroom, discuss prostitution in Korea, and a few males I know have even talked about their visits to the brothels. I've also had students discuss domestic abuse, and acknowledge the role played by Confucianism in perpetuating it. I'm not saying ALL Koreans are so open, and I do suspect that the younger generation might be a bit more candid than their elders. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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Humanus wrote:
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| Also- yes- adults will talk about hot topics in the classroom given a newspaper staring them in the face. However, usually it seemed that in general table talk if asked- "Does Korea have a problem with ___________?" the answer would be negative. Or just blight comments like "I understand that your country has a problem with divorce... bla, bla, bla. We in Korea can't do that. The family is very important." |
With all due respect to humanus, the approach he advocates here, while seemingly innocuous, is almost guaranteed to elicit denials, and not just from Koreans. Suppose an American is living in Canada, and walks into a social gathering curious about Canada's mistreatment of natives. "Ah understand", he says in his unmistakable drawl, "that you Canadians have a problem with the way y'all treat native people". I'm pretty sure that a good chunk of his acquiantances would fire back with "no we don't" or "that's none of your business" or "it's a lot better than the way Americans treat blacks" or some other such attempt to deny or minimize the problem. I certainly don't like this kind of tribalism, but its pretty much a fact of life that people in most countries don't appreciate what they perceive as lectures from foreigners.
Edited to make my example conform more closely to humanus's post. |
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Alias
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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Going to Gekos this week. Wonder if I'll overhear another lovely conversation between a young Canadian Nationalist and a GI about the difference between their two countries.  |
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Korea Newfie
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Location: Newfoundland and Labrador
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| The Lemon wrote: |
| Do I still like Canada? Sure. Do I care if you like Canada or not? Not really. |
Ah... a breath of fresh air.
That's what I tell people when they point out the flaws in Canada...don't go. It's my home, and I like it. If you like it, cool, come and smoke a joint with me at a gay wedding. If you don't, also cool, just don't bitch about my flag-patch. |
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Korea Newfie
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Location: Newfoundland and Labrador
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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bitch gets edited? What if I'm talking about a female dog? son of a bitch...  |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| KOREANS AND NATIONAL PRIDE! |
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weatherman
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:47 am Post subject: |
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The lemon is right
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| He spends a lot of time reading Korean language newspapers and informs me that Koreans *do* discuss controversial issues, and admit their nation's shortcomings - but between themselves, and in the Korean language media (NOT the KH and KT). If they're talking to a "round eye", they're not nearly so candid. So they make statements to us that are absurd - they know they're absurd, and we know they're absurd - but they say it anyway. |
when he speaks of the Marmot. http://marmot.blogs.com/korea/
I can understand all this, but what is going on in the Korean mind when they put up this front? Everybody wants to write this book, but does anybody really have a good answer? |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| I've heard quite a few Koreans, both inside and outside the classroom, discuss prostitution in Korea |
They know we're not stupid, and we have eyes, no Korean is going to say there is not prostitution here. They have a harder time admitting the scale of it, and how accepted it is, and you'll get responses like, "Good Koreans don't do that, only some people do that and they're not real Koreans". They will never say that visits to hostess bars and the like are an ingrained and institutionalised aspect of the Korean mode of doing business, that it's known by all and widely accpepted, that a huge proportion of Korean husbands use prostitutes after marriage and it's so accpepted that it's not looked on favourably as a cause for divorce.
My girlfriend, who loves Korea and often will defend it, states that even now, amoung younger married couples, that most Korean men will use prostitutes after marriage. |
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Alias
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| Korea Newfie wrote: |
| The Lemon wrote: |
| Do I still like Canada? Sure. Do I care if you like Canada or not? Not really. |
Ah... a breath of fresh air.
That's what I tell people when they point out the flaws in Canada...don't go. It's my home, and I like it. If you like it, cool, come and smoke a joint with me at a gay wedding. If you don't, also cool, just don't *beep* about my flag-patch. |
I can understand why Americans would get ticked off when one of these self-righteous Canadian nationalists starts telling them what is wrong with their country. It ticks me off as well. I can't stand the arrogant sh*ts.
What I don't understand is why some (just a few) Americans on this board really have a problem with Canadians having a flag patch? It is usually aimed at the Canadians and not other foreigners who wear flag patches. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:19 am Post subject: |
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They will never say that visits to hostess bars and the like are an ingrained and institutionalised aspect of the Korean mode of doing business, that it's known by all and widely accpepted, that a huge proportion of Korean husbands use prostitutes after marriage and it's so accpepted that it's not looked on favourably as a cause for divorce.
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Never? A male student who recently started working for one of the chaebol told me, without even being asked about it, that he gets taken to the hostess bars on occasion by his bosses. Students have also told me in class that bosses do this, though I don't think these particular students were in the workforce at the time.
I've also been told, by Koreans, that the double poled barber shops are brothels. Seeing as how those shops are all over the place in my city, telling me this is pretty much tantamount to saying that prostitution is widespread and accepted in Korea.
Perhaps Kiwiboy will only be satisfied when every Korean person is wearing a t-shirt that says THERE IS A LOT OF PROSTITUTION IN KOREA. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:43 am Post subject: |
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Just because you haven't encountered the cover up artists doesn't mean they don't exist. A young man alone is going to be more honest with you than a middle aged teacher for example.
Your experience contradicts mine, so as usual we'll have to revert to the default policy which is "I'm right and you're wrong"  |
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