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bluelake
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
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 Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:09 am Post subject: |
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I think the French and US navies did the right thing in killing the pirates. Other navies should take a cue from them. If the pirates know they might have a bead on their heads, they might be less likely to brazenly do what they have been doing with seeming impunity. I think having armed security forces on the ships should also be an option. Of course, there is the danger of retaliation against the hostages still being held (around 200, from what the news sources say), but I think doing nothing is a worse choice.
As for helping Somalia, it was tried in the early '90s and was thrown back in helping nations' faces. You also need a stable gov't to deal with, which Somalia doesn't seem to have. JMO. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| bluelake wrote: |
I think the French and US navies did the right thing in killing the pirates. Other navies should take a cue from them. If the pirates know they might have a bead on their heads, they might be less likely to brazenly do what they have been doing with seeming impunity. I think having armed security forces on the ships should also be an option. Of course, there is the danger of retaliation against the hostages still being held (around 200, from what the news sources say), but I think doing nothing is a worse choice.
As for helping Somalia, it was tried in the early '90s and was thrown back in helping nations' faces. You also need a stable gov't to deal with, which Somalia doesn't seem to have. JMO. |
Well, American Navy Seals killed some pirates. I don't blame them for doing so. I understand Somalis want cash, they have no economy, and this supports families there, but it's the fault of the warlords who can't get the country together. People aren't going to be held hostage by rag tag Somali pirates.
It is hard to patrol the ocean. I suppose you could put naval ships all along the coast of Somalia. Is that possible? I have no idea. It would cost way too much to have it effectively patrolled. You have the French, Russians, Americans, and maybe Germans down there. Perhaps, more nations need to send their navies, and something should be done to encourage a stable Somali Government. |
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bluelake
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| bluelake wrote: |
I think the French and US navies did the right thing in killing the pirates. Other navies should take a cue from them. If the pirates know they might have a bead on their heads, they might be less likely to brazenly do what they have been doing with seeming impunity. I think having armed security forces on the ships should also be an option. Of course, there is the danger of retaliation against the hostages still being held (around 200, from what the news sources say), but I think doing nothing is a worse choice.
As for helping Somalia, it was tried in the early '90s and was thrown back in helping nations' faces. You also need a stable gov't to deal with, which Somalia doesn't seem to have. JMO. |
Well, American Navy Seals killed some pirates. I don't blame them for doing so. I understand Somalis want cash, they have no economy, and this supports families there, but it's the fault of the warlords who can't get the country together. People aren't going to be held hostage by rag tag Somali pirates.
It is hard to patrol the ocean. I suppose you could put naval ships all along the coast of Somalia. Is that possible? I have no idea. It would cost way too much to have it effectively patrolled. You have the French, Russians, Americans, and maybe Germans down there. Perhaps, more nations need to send their navies, and something should be done to encourage a stable Somali Government. |
You are correct--patrolling all the areas cannot be done effectively, especially as the pirates have started venturing out more. I think some of that can be taken care of with the capturing or sinking of the so-called "mother ships".
How ironic--two "pirates" discussing getting rid of pirates...  |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
Well, American Navy Seals killed some pirates. I don't blame them for doing so. |
You're a fair-minded man, Adventurer. Which is why I think you and others ranting to "bomb them" on here have obviously not heard the other side of the story.
European ships have illegally been dumping nuclear waste all along the Somali coastline for the past 15 years at least. Thousands of barrels of radioactive material that has killed hundreds of ordinary Somalis in coastal fishing communities and caused their babies to be born deformed.
In addition, International fishing vessels have swarmed the area with their massive nets, plundering Somali waters of its fish.They have even sent out their navies to harrass, kill and maim poor Somali fishermen to protect this ongoing theft. A dozen countries are involved in this robbery.
It is a disgrace on the international community. Is it any wonder that these fishermen, deprived of their livelihoods have taken to (mostly peacefully) demanding some sort of recompense from the ships that freelly trespass in their waters?
Untold Stories about Somalia Pirates - European ships dump Nuclear Waste into Somalia Ocean
April 12, 2009
In 1991, the government of Somalia - in the Horn of Africa - collapsed. Its 9 million people have been teetering on starvation ever since - and many of the ugliest forces in the Western world have seen this as a great opportunity to steal the country�s food supply and dump our nuclear waste in their seas.
Yes: nuclear waste. As soon as the government was gone, mysterious European ships started appearing off the coast of Somalia, dumping vast barrels into the ocean. The coastal population began to sicken. At first they suffered strange rashes, nausea and malformed babies. Then, after the 2005 tsunami, hundreds of the dumped and leaking barrels washed up on shore. People began to suffer from radiation sickness, and more than 300 died.
Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, the U.N. envoy to Somalia, tells me: �Somebody is dumping nuclear material here. There is also lead and heavy metals such as cadmium and mercury - you name it.� Much of it can be traced back to European hospitals and factories, who seem to be passing it on to the Italian mafia to �dispose� of cheaply. When I asked Ould-Abdallah what European governments were doing about it, he said with a sigh: �Nothing. There has been no cleanup, no compensation and no prevention.�
At the same time, other European ships have been looting Somalia�s seas of their greatest resource: seafood. We have destroyed our own fish stocks by over-exploitation - and now we have moved on to theirs. More than $300 million worth of tuna, shrimp, lobster and other sea life is being stolen every year by vast trawlers illegally sailing into Somalia�s unprotected seas.
The local fishermen have suddenly lost their livelihoods, and they are starving. Mohammed Hussein, a fisherman in the town of Marka 100km south of Mogadishu, told Reuters: �If nothing is done, there soon won�t be much fish left in our coastal waters.�
This is the context in which the men we are calling �pirates� have emerged. Everyone agrees they were ordinary Somalian fishermen who at first took speedboats to try to dissuade the dumpers and trawlers, or at least wage a �tax� on them. They call themselves the Volunteer Coast Guard of Somalia - and it�s not hard to see why.
http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/2009/04/12/untold-stories-about-somalia-pirates-european-ships-dump-nuclear-waste-into-somalia-ocean/ |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:30 am Post subject: |
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The Koreans are involved in the illegal looting of Somali fish stocks. What do you think Korean fishing vessels are doing along Somalia's coastline?
U.S. Navy Rescues South Korean Fishing Boats Held Hostage by Pirates
November 04, 2007
In South Korea, the Foreign Ministry said 24 sailors onboard the two Korean-owned ships seized May 15 off Somalia were safe. The ministry said the ships were being escorted to a port in Yemen by a U.S. Navy warship at the request of the South Korean government, the ministry said in a statement. The two dozen sailors were comprised 10 Chinese, four South Koreans, three Vietnamese, three Indians and four Indonesians.
Last year, another South Korean fishing vessel was captured off Somalia and released three months later after a ransom of more than $800,000 was paid.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,307946,00.html
Somalia has become a free-for-all for International thieves. Lets be clear- the action needed is to punish those companies involved in the theft, and make them undertake a huge clean-up operation along the Somali coast- and pay recompense to the coastal fishing communities they have trashed. |
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bluelake
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
It is a disgrace on the international community. Is it any wonder that these fishermen, deprived of their livelihoods have taken to (mostly peacefully) demanding some sort of recompense from the ships that freelly trespass in their waters?
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| Quote: |
| Somalia has become a free-for-all for International thieves. Lets be clear- the action needed is to punish those companies involved in the theft, and make them undertake a huge clean-up operation along the Somali coast- and pay recompense to the coastal fishing communities they have trashed. |
As the old saying goes, "Two wrongs do not make a right." Piracy is not the answer. Have others done wrong IRT Somalia? Evidently. Should they be held responsible for those wrongs? Sure. However, it needs to be handled through legal means, not piracy. I doubt many, if any of the shipping companies who are being hijacked had a hand in the looting/polluting of Somalia; they should not be made to pay for the sins of others.
If someone (from any country) hijacks a ship, they need to be either captured or killed, whichever works best. JMO. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| bluelake wrote: |
| However, it needs to be handled through legal means, not piracy. |
I hear the Somali fishermen requested assistance from the UN many times but were basically ignored.
Somalia: Fishermen appeal for help over foreign fishing ships
09/03/2006
� Reuters (IRIN News)
Nairobi - Fishermen in Somalia have appealed to the United Nations and the international community to help them rid the country�s southern shores of foreign ships allegedly engaged in illegal fishing.
Describing the activity as "economic terrorism", Somali fishermen told IRIN on Thursday that the ships were not only plundering the fish but were also dumping rubbish and oil into the sea. They complained the Somali government was not strong enough to stop it.
"We want the international agencies to help us deal with this problem," said Muhammad Hussein, a local fisherman from the coastal town of Marka, 100 km south of Mogadishu. "If nothing is done about them, there soon won�t be much fish left in our coastal waters."
An estimated 700 foreign-owned vessels were engaged in unlicensed fishing in Somali waters in 2005, according to the Somali fishery country profile compiled by the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO). However, the agency said it was "impossible to monitor their fishery production in general, let alone the state of the fishery resources they are exploiting. There is also strong suspicion of illegal dumping of industrial and nuclear wastes along the Somali coast."
Crews of the ships had reportedly harassed and intimidated local fishermen. "They are not only taking and robbing us of our fish, but they are also trying to stop us from fishing," said Jeylani Shaykh Abdi. "They have rammed our boats and cut our nets".
He claimed that some of the foreign crews were armed and had occasionally opened fire on Somali fishing boats. There have also been reports that some Somali faction leaders have licensed foreign fishing companies and provided armed militiamen to go onboard the ships.
http://illegal-fishing.info/item_single.php?item=news&item_id=145&approach_id=12
| Quote: |
| ECOTERRA International, the last international environmental organization still working in Somalia, warned ship-owners as far back as 1992 that they were fishing illegally within the Somalia's Exclusive Economic Zone. When foreign vessels refused to stop pirating Somalia's ocean resources, EcoTerra repeatedly appealed to theUS and the international community for help to protect the coastal waters of the war-torn state to no avail. This void provided an opening for the rise of Somalia's pirate fleets. |
http://www.envirosagainstwar.org/know/read.php?itemid=7918
Christopher Jasparro
YaleGlobal, 6 April 2009
"The Secretary-General also noted that he appealed to 50 countries to commit resources for a broader multinational force for Somalia, yet he could find no state willing to take the lead. The international response has been almost entirely naval. At least 20 countries have committed or promised ships for what, on the surface, looks like a 19th century punitive expedition where the strong collude to protect their economic interests"
http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=12210
| Bluelake wrote: |
| If someone (from any country) hijacks a ship, they need to be either captured or killed, whichever works best. JMO. |
It seems a bit extreme that first we take their fish and their livelihood, poison their waters with radiation, and now we want to kill them as well? Remember, there was no problem before. Why now?
I agree that the piracy needs to stop, but the illegal fishing and dumping needs to be adressed, and the environment properly cleaned up by the perpetrators. Compensation needs to be paid to the Somalis for 15 years of daylight robbery. At the moment nobody cares and it is the pirates that are having to collect the tax- which is still a small fraction of the profits a whole pack of nations are making from opportunistically plundering a vulnerable nations resources. Isn't it all just a scramble to edge out China's dominance of world trade by controlling the Horn of Africa? if American ships were illegally fishing out Somali waters, do you honestly believe that the American press would tell you about it?
Hardly surprising that the facts about the "pirates" are being supressed in the media of all the nations participating in it. The whole simplistic "Pirates" story may even function as handy cover for the US to send warships to militarily dominate the region further. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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bluelake
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| bluelake wrote: |
| However, it needs to be handled through legal means, not piracy. |
I hear the Somali fishermen requested assistance from the UN many times but were basically ignored.
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The UN ignores many groups (and tends to be not very useful in many ways anyway).
| Bluelake wrote: |
| If someone (from any country) hijacks a ship, they need to be either captured or killed, whichever works best. JMO. |
| Quote: |
It seems a bit extreme that first we take their fish and their livelihood, poison their waters with radiation, and now we want to kill them as well? Remember, there was no problem before. Why now?
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If they're pirates, yes, they need to be caught or killed. The problem has been around awhile, so there has been a problem; it's becoming worse.
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I agree that the piracy needs to stop, but the illegal fishing and dumping needs to be adressed, and the environment properly cleaned up by the perpetrators. Compensation needs to be paid to the Somalis for 15 years of daylight robbery.
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You have no argument from me, but it needs to be done in an internationally legal way.
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At the moment nobody cares and it is the pirates that are having to collect the tax- which is still a small fraction of the profits a whole pack of nations are making from opportunistically plundering a vulnerable nations resources.
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As the pirates are not a legal governing body and they are attacking ships in international waters, they have no right to "tax" anyone. What they are doing is hijacking and robbery, plain and simple.
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Isn't it all just a scramble to edge out China's dominance of world trade by controlling the Horn of Africa? if American ships were illegally fishing out Somali waters, do you honestly believe that the American press would tell you about it?
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I have no idea about your first question. About the second, unfortunately, I doubt many would care whether they were told or not...
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Hardly surprising that the facts about the "pirates" are being supressed in the media of all the nations participating in it. The whole simplistic "Pirates" story may even function as handy cover for the US to send warships to militarily dominate the region further. |
I doubt the US wants to really get involved with Somalia again militarily; the debacle in the early 90s is still a fresh memory to many. As for being in the region (such as the Gulf of Aden), the US is there along with the military arms of several countries. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| bluelake wrote: |
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I agree that the piracy needs to stop, but the illegal fishing and dumping needs to be adressed, and the environment properly cleaned up by the perpetrators. Compensation needs to be paid to the Somalis for 15 years of daylight robbery.
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You have no argument from me, but it needs to be done in an internationally legal way. |
Nobody is going to help the Somalis or listen to them. It hasn't happened in 15 years, it ain't gonna happen now. I don't blame them in the least for seeking to extort some recompense for what is being done to them.
The European, western and Asian nations involved in the feeding frenzy have no interest in seeing justice happen. Having fished out their own waters, they aren't going to stop until they've emptied Somalia's.
Its big business. Of course they don't want to see a strong government in Somalia: they aren't going to voluntarily police themselves, ...nothing will be done, basically, and they will go on polluting, poisoning and looting the 3000km of Somali coastline until theres nothing left. In the meantime, they'll present their one-sided "evil pirates" garbage in their media while they send "Destroyer warships"  with super high technology to kill a few poor people in rowing boats.
Sorry but at the moment I just see a lot of lies, hypocrisy...... and dead irradiated babies.
Waves 'brought waste to Somalia'
BBC 2 March 2005
Tsunami waves could have spread illegally dumped nuclear waste and other toxic waste on Somalia's coast, a United Nations spokesman has said.
Nick Nuttall of the UN Environment Programme (UNEP) told the BBC that December's tsunami appeared to have broken barrels and scattered waste.
Mr Nuttall said a preliminary UN report had found that Somalis in the northern areas were falling sick as a result.
Some firms have been dumping waste off Somalia's coast for years, the UN says.
It says international companies have been taken advantage of the fact that Somalia had no functioning government from the early 1990s until recently.
Cancer link
"It appears that the tsunami broke open the containers and scattered a lot of these toxic substances around," Mr Nuttall told the BBC's Focus on Africa programme.
We need to see if there needs to be a clean-up, whether top soils have to be removed and disposed of safely.
"We are talking about radioactive chemicals, heavy metals, medical waste.. you name it," he said.
Mr Nuttall said that reports from the tsunami-hit areas in northern Somalia had found that some local villagers there had mouth bleeds and haemorrhages.
He said that some of the hazardous wastes had been linked with cancer.
"We know this hazardous waste is on the land and is being blown around in the air and being carried to villages.
"There is also a possibility - which needs to be urgently investigated - about whether some of these chemicals have got into the coastal waters.
However, the spokesman said the UNEP needed to assess the full impact for the country.
He said that the waste posed significant danger to Somalia's fishing industry and also local marine life.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4312553.stm |
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bluelake
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
Nobody is going to help the Somalis or listen to them. It hasn't happened in 15 years, it ain't gonna happen now. I don't blame them in the least for seeking to extort some recompense for what is being done to them.
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Well, a large number of people in the world do blame them for being criminals, which is all they are.
| Quote: |
In the meantime, they'll present their one-sided "evil pirates" garbage in their media while they send "Destroyer warships" with super high technology to kill a few poor people in rowing boats.
Sorry but at the moment I just see a lot of lies, hypocrisy...... and dead irradiated babies.
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Poor? Do you know how much they've been demanding--and getting--from the shipping companies? It has nothing to do with recompense (at least anymore); it's just greed. Even if the international community somehow fixed all of Somalia's problems, the pirates (and that's ALL they are) would still be committing their crimes, as they got a taste of wealth and aren't about to get off the gravy train.
I wish all could be well with them, that they could go back to honest fishing, and not be pirates any longer. However, the fact is, they are still pirates, committing major crimes, and need to either stop or be stopped by any means, whether that means being caught or wiped off the face of the earth--their choice. As pirates, I have zero sympathy for them. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| It is incredible to me how many people get all up in a twit over individual criminals, but fail to bat an eye over much more egregious corporate and government crimes. |
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appolla
Joined: 21 Mar 2009
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| i say we shoot em if they take over any cargo ships...they knew the dangers when they joined..congrats to the french and US navy ships! |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| It is incredible to me how many people get all up in a twit over individual criminals, but fail to bat an eye over much more egregious corporate and government crimes. |
I agree. I aslo find the level or hypocrisy to be unfathomable. People who probably find it totally acceptable for a white guy from Texas to blow someone's head off for stepping on his property cannot comprehend why SOME Somali's are doing what they are doing.
As for straight up pirates and gangsters, yeah a hellfire missle is the easiest solution.
Quite honestly I would have more respect for the Somalis if they just put a RPG through any ship's hull that was illegally in Somalian waters. |
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