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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| talltony4 wrote: |
I always thought socialism was where the means of production were owned collectively, yet in dubai they are owned by a small elite class called the emerati, and the working class are almost totally dispossessed.
It sure sounds like capitalism to me |
Ah, then the problem is your ears. |
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talltony4
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| errr sorry, ontheway, nothing to see here, I just read your definition of socialism on the "shift towards socialism" thread. I don't want to mess with no libertarian. |
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| talltony4 wrote: |
I always thought socialism was where the means of production were owned collectively, yet in dubai they are owned by a small elite class called the emerati, and the working class are almost totally dispossessed.
It sure sounds like capitalism to me |
Ah, then the problem is your ears. |
You might want to get your hearing checked yourself. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Burn! |
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3MB
Joined: 26 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
I was there for work several times. A raging shit hole. My least favorite city on earth. Feces has more charm. My first big job offer out of grad school was to be based out of there (second was to be in Seoul). I declined, despite the expat package, zero taxes etc.
Dubai is like Singapore. If you build pretty buildings western people will think you're a clean run city. We're naive like that. I've looonnnnggg been bearish on Dubai. Glad to see I was right about the economy and the little secrets of slavery etc are seeping out. Time for Western people to stop checking their critical eye at the door when in foreign lands.
"Hey, let's build islands in the shape of trees and be rich". Yes. Dubai was a sustainable development model. |
Except that Sinapore is a successful state, Dubak isnt going to be. Also Singapore is in no way like Dubai. Have you been to Singapore? Singapore, thank God, never tried to become some sort of uber Disneyland. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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I lived in Singapore for just under 3 years. It is Disney Land + capital punishment, as The Guardian famously described. Singapore is shopping malls, a financial center and a port. Solid bets, those. Also, a one party state and totally demoralized people. Great food. I quite like Singapore and Singaporeans, but the political economy of the place is a facade.
The Singapore success is heavily dependent upon dirty Indonesian (then) and Chinese (now) money being hid in the banking system. Andy Xie, an MIT Phd in economics and former Asia head of Morgan Stanley argues that most of Singapore's "success" is due to siphoning off of wealth from Indonesia. The more your capital stock, the more you can lend. The more you lend, the higher your GDP. Now that the money is drying up, SG resorted to printing money and devaluing the currency. Then the financial crises hit. Their hope is that they can hold on to social stability long enough that the big casinos will open and the economy "come back". But the casino projects are broke and might stall.
q1 GDP in SG 2009 = -19.7%, according to Bloomberg today. It will get much, much, much worse. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm envious of Singapore. I wish our economy and crime issues were like theirs. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Crime, absolutely yes. Economy, absolutely no. |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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"In Saudi, it's hard to be straight when you're young. The women are shut away so everyone has gay sex."
This seems to stand out! |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| talltony4 wrote: |
so, ontheway, by "socialism" you mean "state-run capitalism", right?
I always thought socialism was where the means of production were owned collectively, yet in dubai they are owned by a small elite class called the emerati, and the working class are almost totally dispossessed.
It sure sounds like capitalism to me |
Libertarians use the word "socialism" to mean "anything other than a 100% free-market economy". It can make for confusing discussion, if you don't realize that they're using their own idiosyncratic definitions. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:43 am Post subject: |
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| talltony4 wrote: |
so, ontheway, by "socialism" you mean "state-run capitalism", right?
I always thought socialism was where the means of production were owned collectively, yet in dubai they are owned by a small elite class called the emerati, and the working class are almost totally dispossessed.
It sure sounds like capitalism to me |
Read it again. I blew it up large and made it bold:
Quote:
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| Why is the state so keen to defend this system of slavery? He offers a prosaic explanation. "Most companies are owned by the government, so they oppose human rights laws because it will reduce their profit margins. It's in their interests that the workers are slaves." |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| talltony4 wrote: |
so, ontheway, by "socialism" you mean "state-run capitalism", right?
I always thought socialism was where the means of production were owned collectively, yet in dubai they are owned by a small elite class called the emerati, and the working class are almost totally dispossessed.
It sure sounds like capitalism to me |
Libertarians use the word "socialism" to mean "anything other than a 100% free-market economy". It can make for confusing discussion, if you don't realize that they're using their own idiosyncratic definitions. |
Libertarians use the word socialism correctly.
As the D and R politicians have adopted everything demanded by the original socialists into law but refused to admit they are socialists, the term has become confused for those who don't understand that everything the government does beyond a few limited functions IS socialism. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| talltony4 wrote: |
so, ontheway, by "socialism" you mean "state-run capitalism", right?
I always thought socialism was where the means of production were owned collectively, yet in dubai they are owned by a small elite class called the emerati, and the working class are almost totally dispossessed.
It sure sounds like capitalism to me |
SOME Libertarians use the word "socialism" to mean "anything other than a 100% free-market economy". It can make for confusing discussion, if you don't realize that they're using their own idiosyncratic definitions. |
I italicized my addition.
I don't think discussions of market ideology are terribly helpful right now. Especially since individuals who are right-of-center on economic issues are in the minority. |
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talltony4
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Eh, Kuros? I don't get you.
Ontheway, I take your point, but I read the article as saying that, in Dubai, the government and the Emerati are one and the same. Nearly all other people in Dubai are expats and (presumably) unable to vote.
Thus, it makes little difference that the companies are owned by the "government", since the government are also the ruling class.
At the risk of derailing this thread, don't you think that libertarianism (and all economic rationalism, Chicago school etc) goes against basic human nature? i.e homo sapiens are successful because they help each other, are empathetic, and work collectively. |
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