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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| There are going to be individuals who are more sensitive to the substance. That's how humans are. A standard bell shaped distribution still allows for outliers. |
I already said that above.
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| Individuals who commit suicide are outliers. Statistically, it is highly abnormal and unlikely behaviouir. What you are advocating is trying to correct a statistically unlikely outcome with a fix that has unknown long term consequences in a large and diverse populations. |
I'm not "advocating" anything. I'm saying it's a new public policy issue. The ethics, feasibility, utility, and cost effectiveness of doing so are all now open to public debate. The study hasn't even been replicated yet, we don't even know if the Japanese study is a fluke or whether it will be verified with subsequent studies done elsewhere. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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We must never allow mass medication nor the forced medication of individuals. Individuals must be left free to choose their own medical treatments. And the consequences of mass medication can be disasterous and tragic.
And since no one got the reference:
"Miranda!"
I suggest you all watch the TV series: Firefly and the movie Serenity
The best SciFi ever made - by Joss Whedon. Millions dead and an army of monsters called "Reavers" created by the government's attempt to make people better, more peaceful and less violent through mass medication.
Watch the entire first video. Then dare to try mass medication.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZPxNmMlkqY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0te390iMHk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvGANP_hq7c |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 2:07 am Post subject: |
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Well, since science fiction is just that, science fiction, it's irrelevant to the issue at hand. Drinking water is already medicated. It's called fluoridation. It's medicated to reduce the incidence of dental caries in the population, and its turned out to be cost-effective and of benefit to all in society. Only paranoid conspiracy theorists raise any objections to it.
And drinking water is already medicated in another sense: it's called chlorination. Chlorine is added to drinking water in order to kill harmful bacteria, viruses and parasites that can cause disease in humans. It is in every sense of the word "mass medication" because it destroys disease causing organisms that are normally naturally present both inside and outside the human body. Literally millions of people die in the world every year because they don't have access to safe drinking water. How many millions of people in developed countries would be ill or dead, and how much lower would our standard of living and quality of life be, if drinking water was not chlorinated? Again only the paranoid conspiracy theorist or the intensely stupid would have any objection to it.
If it turns out that adding trace quantities of lithium to drinking water would reduce the number of suicides without causing adverse impact to the general population, then it would be the moral and humanitarian thing to do. And anyone who would object to it would be callous, selfish and be counted among the lowest thing that crawled on the earth. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
If it turns out that adding trace quantities of lithium to drinking water would reduce the number of suicides without causing adverse impact to the general population, then it would be the moral and humanitarian thing to do. And anyone who would object to it would be callous, selfish and be counted among the lowest thing that crawled on the earth. |
But, if too much lithium may lead to birth defects, miscarrages, lethargy and loss of interest in life, or an increase in violence among some subsets of the population, no matter how small, then this would be another inane and unnecessary public policy program that would make the world a worse place to live.
And why do it? Why risk it? Anyone who needs a lithium supplement can get it individually. It's stupid beyond belief for the government to provide something involuntarily, to a large population that may be harmed by it, to literally force it down their throats, when only a tiny population needs it in the first place.
This is a stupid idea that sounds like it has been created by lithium sellers to enrich themselves at the expense of the health of the general population, and spread by ignorant dogooders who have mush for brains and toilet paper for diplomas.
Anyone who would adopt such a dangerous plan ... "would be callous, selfish and [should be] counted among the lowest thing[s] that [ever] crawled on the earth." |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| But, if too much lithium may lead to birth defects, miscarrages, lethargy and loss of interest in life, or an increase in violence among some subsets of the population, no matter how small, then this would be another inane and unnecessary public policy program that would make the world a worse place to live. |
But a) nobody is talking about adding "too much lithium" to the water supply, and b) there is no link between lithium and any of those things in the first place.
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| And why do it? Why risk it? Anyone who needs a lithium supplement can get it individually. It's stupid beyond belief for the government to provide something involuntarily, to a large population that may be harmed by it, to literally force it down their throats, when only a tiny population needs it in the first place. |
Because suicide is often a symptomless condition. It's not like an infectious disease or cancer, where the symptoms of its onset can be readily detected. It does occur often among the depressed, of course, but some people who are depressed or are having suicidal thoughts show no sign of it to the people around them. For some people who are borderline suicidal, consuming low levels of lithium in their drinking water over a long period of time may prevent their death. If low levels of lithium are harmless to the general population - and this Japanese study shows there are no ill effects - and these suicides can be prevented by adding it to the water supply, than its morally irresponsible to argue against it. It's like saying that seatbelts are unnecessary for all because they only benefit a small part of the population: the people who die in car accidents.
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| This is a stupid idea that sounds like it has been created by lithium sellers to enrich themselves at the expense of the health of the general population, and spread by ignorant dogooders who have mush for brains and toilet paper for diplomas. |
There ARE no significant "lithium sellers" because lithium, as an element, can't be patented. It's a first research study done by educated and well-trained scientists who, whether lithium turns out to be beneficial or not, have no financial stake in the outcome.
Objections to this are just another version of the NIMBY syndrome, and a sign of the poor level of science education that takes place in Western countries. Adding lithium to tap water is a GREAT idea that has the potential to save thousands of lives every year worldwide. In Japan alone, if just 1% of all suicides are prevented by lithium in tap water, this would save 300 lives a year. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Objections to this are just another version of the NIMBY syndrome, and a sign of the poor level of science education that takes place in Western countries. Adding lithium to tap water is a GREAT idea that has the potential to save thousands of lives every year worldwide. In Japan alone, if just 1% of all suicides are prevented by lithium in tap water, this would save 300 lives a year. |
How does lithium work?
I'll help you. We don't know. For the mass drugging of a population (an at risk one, so we can experiment on some poor types first) "we don't know" doesn't cut it.
Not nimbyism. Skepticism.
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| a sign of the poor level of science education that takes place in Western countries. |
Which hogwan is underemploying the scientific genius that is you? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
If it turns out that adding trace quantities of lithium to drinking water would reduce the number of suicides without causing adverse impact to the general population, then it would be the moral and humanitarian thing to do. And anyone who would object to it would be callous, selfish and be counted among the lowest thing that crawled on the earth. |
Before we deem the opposition callous, selfish, and low in a fit of Dubya Manichaeism, I have a question for you.
Was adding fluoride to the American water supply safe? In the 1950s, chemical companies convinced the US to add fluoride to our water supply, because of its admittedly beneficial effect on dental health. I know my teeth are whiter here in the US than they ever were in Korea or China. But non-crackpot authorities are now taking a second look at fluoride. Is Scientific American now callous, selfish, and a menace to dental health across North America? |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| How does lithium work? |
Go read Wikipedia.
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| Not nimbyism. Skepticism. |
It's nimbysim because as you yourself admitted, you thought the research study was about adding prescription-levels of lithium to tap water, when the study actually looked at the effects of extremely low levels of naturally-occurring lithium on human health. You were unable to distinguish between the two until I pointed out the difference to you.
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| a sign of the poor level of science education that takes place in Western countries. |
Which hogwan is underemploying the scientific genius that is you? |
Well that's just my point. It doesn't take a genius to understand this issue, just someone able to crunch some basic numbers and understand some basic public health and public policy issues. Instead you rushed to judge without even looking deeper at the issue - you take negative stances against my comments without even doing any research on the topic of your own - and felt self-satisfied that you've catered to your own preconceived notions. That's probably why you don't make any important decisions in this world. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
If it turns out that adding trace quantities of lithium to drinking water would reduce the number of suicides without causing adverse impact to the general population, then it would be the moral and humanitarian thing to do. And anyone who would object to it would be callous, selfish and be counted among the lowest thing that crawled on the earth. |
Before we deem the opposition callous, selfish, and low in a fit of Dubya Manichaeism, I have a question for you.
Was adding fluoride to the American water supply safe? In the 1950s, chemical companies convinced the US to add fluoride to our water supply, because of its admittedly beneficial effect on dental health. |
Actually the effects of fluoridation on dental caries was discovered by two dentists in west Texas in the 1940s, who discovered that people living in an area with high levels of naturally-occuring fluoride in groundwater had a lower incidence of cavities. They were the ones who brought this to the public and started to advocate fluoridation. Fluoridating water is an extremely slow way for any chemical company to get rich.
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| I know my teeth are whiter here in the US than they ever were in Korea or China. But non-crackpot authorities are now taking a second look at fluoride. Is Scientific American now callous, selfish, and a menace to dental health across North America? |
There's a difference between taking a second look and dismissing it out of hand. And there's a big difference - a big moral difference - between dismissing something that will prevent cavities and something that will prevent death. That's just being mentally and morally lazy.
Why don't you look further into the issue and give us some good reasons - good scientific reasons - why either fluoridation or lithiation of drinking water shouldn't happen? I'm not here to do your research for you. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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Iodised salt has been used in the United States since before World War II. Iodised salt prevents mental retardation and goiter.
Folic acid is added to flour in many industrialized countries, and has prevented a significant number of neural tube defects in infants.
Niacin has been added to bread in the USA since 1938 (when voluntary addition started), a programme which substantially reduced the incidence of pellagra.
Vitamin D is added to a few foods (especially margarine).
Calcium is frequently added to fruit juices, carbonated beverages and rice.
A wide range of iron compounds, including ferrous sulfate, ferrous fumarate and even elemental iron powder are added to food (usually cereal flours, but also table salt, milk and condiments) in a number of countries to prevent iron deficiency anemia. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| That's just being mentally and morally lazy. |
Are you calling me mentally and morally lazy? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| That's just being mentally and morally lazy. |
Are you calling me mentally and morally lazy? |
I think he is.
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| Well that's just my point. It doesn't take a genius to understand this issue, just someone able to crunch some basic numbers and understand some basic public health and public policy issues. Instead you rushed to judge without even looking deeper at the issue - you take negative stances against my comments without even doing any research on the topic of your own - and felt self-satisfied that you've catered to your own preconceived notions. That's probably why you don't make any important decisions in this world. |
Yes, anyways. I oppose drugging populations, however you dress it up. And we don't sufficiently understand how lithium works on the mind, so I don't know if you're going to ask the "at risk" groups if they want to be guinea pigs, but they might not agree. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Go suck on a battery. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Yes, anyways. I oppose drugging populations, however you dress it up. And we don't sufficiently understand how lithium worrks on the mind, so I don't know if you're going to ask the "at risk" groups if they want to be guinea pigs, but they might not agree. |
Well I oppose drugging populations, too. But as I pointed out above, the levels of lithium that this study looked at are far below the levels at which lithium is used as a drug. I think there would be some interesting effects if caffene or prozac were added to the water supply, but its not justifiable on either health or moral/ethical grounds.
There are a lot of questions that would have to be sorted out with adding lithium to the water supply, and of course one of them would be, "Is this equivalent to drugging the entire population?" You are suggesting that it is; I've offered an argument as to why I think it isn't.
Obviously, if one region of Japan has high levels of naturally occuring lithium in its groundwater, there must be other areas in the world where this is also happening. And, there is the issue of defining the boundary of what constitutes a drug and what doesn't. Lithium prescribed to treat bipolar disorder is obviously a drug. Vitamins and food additives CAN be used as drugs, but most of the time they are simply health supplements.
You're right, scientists don't sufficiently understand how lithium works on the brain...but that's more of an argument for conducting further research, not for dismissing lithium as an addition to the water supply out of hand. The population in the Japanese study, who have been consuming their tapwater for 50 years or more (presumably) have shown no ill effects from exposure to low levels of lithium. Quite the opposite.
So yes, the open question is, if adding low levels of lithium to the water supply - or somehow boosting the naturally occuring level of lithium in water - can prevent suicides, does it deserve a closer look? I think the answer is yes. The bigger question is, if adding lithium to the water supply can be demonstrated to save lives without causing any ill effects to the average person, is it morally responsible to support it? But until the first question is answered, we're not ready to answer the second one. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| That's just being mentally and morally lazy. |
Are you calling me mentally and morally lazy? |
I said it's mentally and morally lazy to fail to distinguish between taking a second look at something like this, and simply dimissing it out of hand, without even doing a bit of original research on the issue yourself. If you want to own that, knock yourself out. |
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