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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| Absolutely. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| Your standards of perfection are highly unrealistic. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| What about all the Catholic orphanages where there was no abuse and all the orphans from them who were not abused? What about all the Catholic children's homes, hospitals, schools, homeless shelters, etc., in the world? |
(deliberately antagonistic anti-theist comeback) Are those the AIDS orphanages that litter Africa because someone in a white frock says condoms are evil? 
We could go on all year like this. But as one poster points out, this was lack of oversight. A problem with any institution that cares for the vulnerable.
Harold Shipman killed so many because people trust doctors. These priests and nuns were trusted too. We have to stop automatically trusting people because of their occupation. Religion should no more have a free pass to morality than that strange man in the park who mummy chased away.
The sad thing is that no one seems to be held accountable for these crimes in the Ireland case. Why is this? |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 3:09 am Post subject: |
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I say absolutely - and I can say absolutely - because if you look into any of the stories that have come out since yesterday on this report, a lot of these Catholic religious organizations are on their last legs. In Ireland, the Christian Brotherhood, for example, has been so damaged by the abuse revelations that they are in windup mode. They are unable to attract new recruits, and a lot of people are predicting these organizations will disappear within 10 or 15 years:
| The Huffington Post wrote: |
Ireland's myriad religious orders, much like their mother church, have been devastated by 15 years of scandals involving past cover-ups of abusers in their ranks.
The Christian Brothers have withdrawn from running several schools that still bear their name and the order has had few recruits in Ireland in the past two decades. Other orders are down to a handful of members, and their bases are closer to nursing homes than active missions.
"Most of these orders will literally die out in Ireland within the next generation or so," said Michael Kelly, editor of the Irish Catholic newspaper in Dublin. "Many of them are already in wind-up mode. They lack the confidence even to seek new vocations (recruits), due to the stigma associated with their members' shocking, scandalous behavior." |
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/20/irish-reform-schools-thou_n_205719.html
So? Good riddance. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 6:44 am Post subject: |
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The vast majority of Catholic clergy are sincere, hard-working, selfless people. What a shame that such an organization that has done so much for the poor, sick, and downtrodden must succumb to ambulance-chasing scandal-mongerers.
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
The vast majority of Catholic clergy are sincere, hard-working, selfless people. What a shame that such an organization that has done so much for the poor, sick, and downtrodden must succumb to ambulance-chasing scandal-mongerers.
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The Church lost my sympathy with their continued opposition to condom use in Africa. I'm willing to forgive and forget (must be my Catholic upbringing) past sins, but the continued anti-condom stance in Africa is shocking.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/17/pope-africa-condoms-aids
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The Pope today reignited the controversy over the Catholic church's stance on condom use as he made his first trip to Africa.
The pontiff said condoms were not the answer to the continent's fight against HIV and Aids and could make the problem worse. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| The Church lost my sympathy with their continued opposition to condom use in Africa. I'm willing to forgive and forget (must be my Catholic upbringing) past sins, but the continued anti-condom stance in Africa is shocking. |
It is unfair to blame all the good clergy for an idiotic policy of the Pope. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 7:49 am Post subject: |
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Pedophilia in the Catholic church was as organized, systematic, and institutionalized as the death camps were in Nazi Germany. It was as Catholic as the Pope.
If anything, the whole organization should be outlawed. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| Pedophilia in the Catholic church was as organized, systematic, and institutionalized as the death camps were in Nazi Germany. |
....which the Church supported |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
The vast majority of Catholic clergy are sincere, hard-working, selfless people. What a shame that such an organization that has done so much for the poor, sick, and downtrodden must succumb to ambulance-chasing scandal-mongerers.
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If I didn't know better I would swear that this is sarcasm. You ARE kidding us, right? 
The whole organization STINKS. What was done to these children in Ireland was not an isolated case...it took place in almost every country and region that the Christian Brothers and like-minded priests operated. Here are some examples from Wikipedia:
Australia
Archdiocese of Sydney
* Ross Murrin - Catholic brother plead guilty to sexually abusing eight male students.
Archdiocese of Melbourne
There were several abuse affairs in the Melbourne archdiocese.
Archdiocese of Brisbane
* Francis Edward Derriman - sentenced in 1998 to 12 months jail (suspended after serving four months) after being found guilty of indecently dealing with a teenage girl.
Archdiocese of Perth
* Gerard William Dick - self-confessed sexually abusive priest sentenced to three and a half years jail in 1995 for ten incidents of indecently dealing with boys aged eight to ten at a Christian Brothers orphanage in Western Australia.
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* The Diocese of Tucson filed bankruptcy in September, 2004. The Diocese of Tucson reached an agreement with plaintiffs, which the bankruptcy judge approved on June 11, 2005, specifying terms that included allowing the diocese reorganization to continue in return for a $22.2 million settlement. |
NOT on your list are at least 99.9% of all Catholic clergy. Thank you for proving my point. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 8:17 am Post subject: |
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They ARE on the list.
They are the ones who knew it was going on, and did nothing about it. It's obvious that if the abuse was so widespread and systematic, the majority of the Catholic clergy, 99% of them, must have known about out and chose to do nothing, or pretended it didn't exist because it threatened their sense of moral superiority. It was systematically covered up for decades with the assistance and active knowledge of the MAJORITY of the clergy and higher church hierarchy.
And why?
Because the whole institution served as a foundation and repository for pedophiles. It NURTURED them. It was fundamental to their psychology and way of life. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 8:24 am Post subject: |
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It's amazing how someone so interested in the minutae of mythical experiences like the JFK assassination theories, the 911 conspiracy theories and "the secret people behind Obama" is so reluctant to face the minutae of the biggest REAL conspiracy of the 20th century.
The systematic, organized conspiracy by the whole Catholic clergy to conceal, protect and nurture a culture of pedophilia and child abuse within its ranks. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Well, maybe a little parody, but are you two saying it's inappropriate to consider the Catholic Church a business that acted in its own interests and not the interests of its charges? |
Ya-ta, I've never met a libertarian so nutty that he would want "the market" to deal with child rape. |
Why focus on the symptom rather than the cause? As another poster said, this is a case of the corrupting effect of unrestrained power. The function of all governments is the protection of its citizens. The Irish government made a decision in good faith to farm out orphans and delinquents to the Church and the Church betrayed that trust by acting in its own interest and protecting the rogues within it. bacaspar is partially right; there are altruistic people, but that is beside the point. The point is that oversight of the safety of citizens is a government responsibility. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| ED209 wrote: |
We could go on all year like this. But as one poster points out, this was lack of oversight. A problem with any institution that cares for the vulnerable.
Harold Shipman killed so many because people trust doctors. These priests and nuns were trusted too. We have to stop automatically trusting people because of their occupation. Religion should no more have a free pass to morality than that strange man in the park who mummy chased away. |
Yes, here's a reasoned response.
Unlike the people comparing the Catholic Church to Nazi Germany. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
It's amazing how someone so interested in the minutae of mythical experiences like the JFK assassination theories, the 911 conspiracy theories and "the secret people behind Obama" is so reluctant to face the minutae of the biggest REAL conspiracy of the 20th century.
The systematic, organized conspiracy by the whole Catholic clergy to conceal, protect and nurture a culture of pedophilia and child abuse within its ranks. |
There's literally no point arguing with true believers. Unless you're preaching to the choir or to fence-sitters, you're wasting your breath.
| YaTaboy wrote: |
| The point is that oversight of the safety of citizens is a government responsibility. |
Which nobody disputes |
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