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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| seonsengnimble wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| seonsengnimble wrote: |
You realize that If men and women played sports together that the end result would be no women in most sports, right?
Maybe fencing, bowling and ping pong would have women, but I can't think of many others.
I realize this may come off as sexist, but there are physical differences between men and women. |
So your argument is "In any field where women are seemingly not able to perform as well as men, they should receive special protection to allow them to avoid male competition?"
Should this extend to other fields? |
There are two main differences between other fields and sports.
The first is that in sports, your body plays one of the most significant roles in your ability. Could a man with Chris Farley's body and Michael Jordon's mind play anywhere close to Michael Jordon's ability? |
Definitely not. The same is true of many jobs in the construction field.
| seonsengnimble wrote: |
| The other is the fact that sports are games. It matters if someone wins a lawsuit. It matters if someone is able to teach. Does it matter if the Yankees win the world series? |
It does matter to the Yankees franchise's profit margins, I'd imagine. It also does matter greatly to quite a few people on a personal level I believe. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| seonsengnimble wrote: |
You realize that If men and women played sports together that the end result would be no women in most sports, right?
Maybe fencing, bowling and ping pong would have women, but I can't think of many others.
I realize this may come off as sexist, but there are physical differences between men and women. |
So your argument is "In any field where women are seemingly not able to perform as well as men, they should receive special protection to allow them to avoid male competition?"
Should this extend to other fields? |
You know, I completely misjudged you. |
Don't get so riled up, I don't give a damn about sports, much less discrimination in sports. I'm more or less playing debate team for fun (though I have to say, most of the pro-gender segregation arguments so far haven't been good ones).
Unless you're saying you misjudged me as someone who only argues from conviction under all circumstances, in which case, you got me. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| seonsengnimble wrote: |
You realize that If men and women played sports together that the end result would be no women in most sports, right?
Maybe fencing, bowling and ping pong would have women, but I can't think of many others.
I realize this may come off as sexist, but there are physical differences between men and women. |
So your argument is "In any field where women are seemingly not able to perform as well as men, they should receive special protection to allow them to avoid male competition?"
Should this extend to other fields? |
You know, I completely misjudged you. |
Don't get so riled up, I don't give a damn about sports, much less discrimination in sports. I'm more or less playing debate team for fun (though I have to say, most of the pro-gender segregation arguments so far haven't been good ones).
Unless you're saying you misjudged me as someone who only argues from conviction under all circumstances, in which case, you got me. |
Sport? I'm indifferent. I've never really understood it, unless Team Canada's male hockey team is in the Olympics. All bets are off then. Was referring to the lack of dogma.
But to where the discussion is slightly headed:
Is it possible to believe in these two things at once:
1) no meaningful differences in inherent ability between the sexes
2) evolution
? |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Does anyone know what test they use to determine sex in these professional sports? |
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seonsengnimble
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Location: taking a ride on the magic English bus
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
Definitely not. The same is true of many jobs in the construction field. |
It would be interesting to see statistics on job performance in construction. If, in fact, women work slower, than I would have no objection towards discrimination in that field. If your job requires you to lift a certain amount within a certain amount of time, and you can't, why should you be hired?
| seonsengnimble wrote: |
| The other is the fact that sports are games. It matters if someone wins a lawsuit. It matters if someone is able to teach. Does it matter if the Yankees win the world series? |
| Fox wrote: |
| It does matter to the Yankees franchise's profit margins, I'd imagine. It also does matter greatly to quite a few people on a personal level I believe. |
Not exactly sure where I was going with this, but let's apply this to the idea of having separate leagues. If you have a league with women and a league with men, people will still watch and pay players on the worse league. It matters whether or not your team wins, but it doesn't matter if your team can't beat a team in a different league. Granted, players in the worse league won't be payed as much as players in the better league, but if it weren't for the different leagues, the players wouldn't be playing at all.
If there was a construction crew where all the employees were women who didn't work as well as men, who would hire them?
The difference here is that no one would hire a crappy construction crew over a decent one, whereas people will still watch women's sports even though the women don't perform as well as men.
The only way a construction crew who performs poorly could survive would be to charge less. There are limits, however to how little you could charge. You still have materials which need to be paid for, and you still need to pay your employees.
Additionally, let's look at this from a business perspective. There are three options.
Option 1: Remove segregation, and whoever plays the best is on the team.
Option 2: Remove segregation and require a certain number of women athletes on each team.
Option 3: Keep segregation and have separate leagues.
In option 1, no women, or at least very few women play and everyone involved in the women's teams is out of a job.
In option 2, the games aren't played as well as they were before. Basketball games will have fewer points, and the games won't be as interesting as before. Fewer people will watch them, and everyone loses money.
In option 3, the men's leagues play well and make a lot of money. The women't leagues play fairly well and make some money. They play in a separate field where they can compete, and some people watch your games.
Option 3 seems like the most economically viable one. It also seems like the option which allows the most people to play.
Last edited by seonsengnimble on Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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seonsengnimble
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Location: taking a ride on the magic English bus
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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Two more examples of separating players by their ability levels:
1. Minor league teams. A team in a town of 100,000 or less people won't have a major league team. Instead they'll have a team that doesn't play as well and plays against other teams who play at a comparable ability. A small town team doesn't have the money to pay for players who can compete in the major leagues, so players who are pretty good but not exceptional still get to play, and the towns still have a sports team to follow. Should they stop this segregation based on location?
2. Special Olympics. Granted, this isn't really a profitable event, but the same ideas apply. If I'm in a wheelchair, why shouldn't I be able to compete against people who can walk? If I'm mentally challenged, why can't I compete against others who aren't? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
But to where the discussion is slightly headed:
Is it possible to believe in these two things at once:
1) no meaningful differences in inherent ability between the sexes
2) evolution |
Well, it's clearly possible to believe in it. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:22 am Post subject: |
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| seonsengnimble wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
Definitely not. The same is true of many jobs in the construction field. |
It would be interesting to see statistics on job performance in construction. If, in fact, women work slower, than I would have no objection towards discrimination in that field. If your job requires you to lift a certain amount within a certain amount of time, and you can't, why should you be hired? |
I'm reminded of the British police force by this. At one point, they had a law that said police officers had to be over a certain height, because they felt the taller officers were more imposing, and thus better able to handle certain types of situations (for obvious reasons).
They eventually removed this restriction specifically and only to allow a reasonable number of women to qualify for the force.
| seonsengnimble wrote: |
| seonsengnimble wrote: |
| The other is the fact that sports are games. It matters if someone wins a lawsuit. It matters if someone is able to teach. Does it matter if the Yankees win the world series? |
| Fox wrote: |
| It does matter to the Yankees franchise's profit margins, I'd imagine. It also does matter greatly to quite a few people on a personal level I believe. |
Not exactly sure where I was going with this, but let's apply this to the idea of having separate leagues. If you have a league with women and a league with men, people will still watch and pay players on the worse league. It matters whether or not your team wins, but it doesn't matter if your team can't beat a team in a different league. Granted, players in the worse league won't be payed as much as players in the better league, but if it weren't for the different leagues, the players wouldn't be playing at all.
If there was a construction crew where all the employees were women who didn't work as well as men, who would hire them?
The difference here is that no one would hire a crappy construction crew over a decent one, whereas people will still watch women's sports even though the women don't perform as well as men.
The only way a construction crew who performs poorly could survive would be to charge less. There are limits, however to how little you could charge. You still have materials which need to be paid for, and you still need to pay your employees.
Additionally, let's look at this from a business perspective. There are three options.
Option 1: Remove segregation, and whoever plays the best is on the team.
Option 2: Remove segregation and require a certain number of women athletes on each team.
Option 3: Keep segregation and have separate leagues.
In option 1, no women, or at least very few women play and everyone involved in the women's teams is out of a job.
In option 2, the games aren't played as well as they were before. Basketball games will have fewer points, and the games won't be as interesting as before. Fewer people will watch them, and everyone loses money.
In option 3, the men's leagues play well and make a lot of money. The women't leagues play fairly well and make some money. They play in a separate field where they can compete, and some people watch your games.
Option 3 seems like the most economically viable one. It also seems like the option which allows the most people to play. |
Reasonably well argued. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| seonsengnimble wrote: |
Two more examples of separating players by their ability levels:
1. Minor league teams. A team in a town of 100,000 or less people won't have a major league team. Instead they'll have a team that doesn't play as well and plays against other teams who play at a comparable ability. A small town team doesn't have the money to pay for players who can compete in the major leagues, so players who are pretty good but not exceptional still get to play, and the towns still have a sports team to follow. Should they stop this segregation based on location? |
I don't think this is comparable to gender segregation. Those minor league teams would happily accept a major league quality player if, for some reason, the major league player applied. They still take the best players they can get, they just can't get the best players due to their pay grades. By comparison, a woman's team probably won't accept a superior male player.
| seonsengnimble wrote: |
| 2. Special Olympics. Granted, this isn't really a profitable event, but the same ideas apply. If I'm in a wheelchair, why shouldn't I be able to compete against people who can walk? If I'm mentally challenged, why can't I compete against others who aren't? |
As you say, non-profit event rather than for-profit business. The Special Olympics would flat out not serve its purpose if it allowed non-handicapped people to compete. I'm not sure you really want to be comparing women's sports to the Special Olympics. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Does anyone know what test they use to determine sex in these professional sports? |
Is there even a standardized test used? In the vast, vast majority of cases, we automatically recognize someone's gender. I can't imagine the issue has come up frequently enough to have a standardized solution. |
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FUBAR
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: The Y.C.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| seonsengnimble wrote: |
You realize that If men and women played sports together that the end result would be no women in most sports, right?
For example:
Fastest 100m by a man: 9.58seconds
Fastest 100m by a woman: 10.49seconds
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And actually, Flo-jo's 100m record is highly disputed as being wind-aided. With Marion Jones admitting to doing PEDs to achieve her best time, that would make 10.73 the fastest time ever for that race.
Let's just say this... that an elite 16 year old boy could beat the best female in the world in almost ever track and field event and has the physical capabilities to be better in most every sport, save a few sports where they haven't developed the skill necessary to win.
Just not fair or interesting in having men and women to compete in the same event. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Does anyone know what test they use to determine sex in these professional sports? |
Is there even a standardized test used? In the vast, vast majority of cases, we automatically recognize someone's gender. I can't imagine the issue has come up frequently enough to have a standardized solution. |
Not only has it come up, one athlete was actually stripped of a medal after failing a sex test.
The article does not give the specifics, but it is apparently quite involved:
| Quote: |
| The medical evaluation panel usually includes a gynecologist, endocrinologist, psychologist and internal medicine specialist. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:10 am Post subject: |
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Media witch hunt on Caster Semenya
20 August 2009
This week South African media, in particular radio DJ�s and print media have been having a shameless orgy with the gender dispute of our gold medalist heroin competing in Berlin.
Last year we lost a South African sport star to a hate crime because she transgressed gender boundaries. Banyana soccer star Eudy Simelane was murdered in a township because she challenged expected gender stereotypes.
Is our media putting a South African hero�s life in danger on her return, gold medal in hand?
Instead of being proud of our champion the South African media and public is on a witch-hunt trying to define Semenya�s sex. DJ�s on radio are dissecting Semenya�s person to a point of reducing her accomplishments to her genitals.
more at link
If Caster is eventually determined to be intersex (i.e. any of the conditions demonstrating features of both sexes), in which event should s/he compete? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2631482/Runner-is-a-hermaphrodite.html
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THE controversy over gender row champion runner Caster Semenya deepened today � after reports claimed sex swap tests have shown she is a HERMAPHRODITE.
South African gold-medallist Semenya, 18, has both male and female organs, it was claimed. |
Well what to do now? |
I see no reason that hermaphordites shouldn't be able to compete in whichever category they personally identify with. I seriously doubt the reason she considers herself a woman is because she thought she'd have an advantage in competitions against other women. |
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