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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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 Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| nathanrutledge wrote: |
| This article is very misleading. First, there are only a few articles which point to the Israeli government actually stealing organs from Palestinians. |
So if it is not reported, it is not happening?
| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Your title is rather inflaming and accusatory. |
Mine is a paraphrase of the original. Take it up with Counterpunch.
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| I would actually like to see the proof that the Government has a policy in place before i accepted that Israel is using Gaza as a organ plant. |
We'll see what happens after the ICJ finishes its investigation.
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| I also think that unless you have absolute proof this is occuring that you don't perpetuate rumor and slander as fact. |
You are confused. Posters here do not have to vouch for the veracity of reposted articles. I post them for discussion and refutation, if possible. Sometimes people post patently absurd stories. I just don't think it is in this case, as evidenced by the facts of the chief pathologist removed from his post for stealing body parts, the ICJ investigation, and the specifics of Israel�s first heart transplant.
Refute away.
| ytuque wrote: |
| The original news source in Sweden for this has already been discredited! |
By whom, you? Netanyahu? Otherwise, by all means post where/how it has been discredited. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: Gaza: Israel's Organ Farm |
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| Trevor wrote: |
Discredited? No it wasn't. It was denied, by Netanyahu -- a thug. Certainly not discredited.
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Yes it has. Type in "Swedish story about Israeli organs discredited" into Google and you will get quite a few articles about it.
Here's one
http://si-info.org/index.php?id=456
The journalist who wrote this story has now admitted he never had any proof.
And the family mentioned in the article, the Ghanems, deny remembering they ever spoke to any Swedish journalists.
The PA also seems to think it's a rumor.
And oh bacasper, your link in the OP (at the bottom) no longer works. Could it be because the host realizes this was a B.S story?
And if you don't like that link, there's plenty of other articles that say the same thing. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:47 pm Post subject: Re: Gaza: Israel's Organ Farm |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Trevor wrote: |
Discredited? No it wasn't. It was denied, by Netanyahu -- a thug. Certainly not discredited.
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Yes it has. Type in "Swedish story about Israeli organs discredited" into Google and you will get quite a few articles about it.
Here's one
http://si-info.org/index.php?id=456
The journalist who wrote this story has now admitted he never had any proof.
And the family mentioned in the article, the Ghanems, deny remembering they ever spoke to any Swedish journalists.
The PA also seems to think it's a rumor. |
I love this debate tactic: "You're wrong. Just google it." One can google any side one desires in just about any debate. It is almost as good as your attacking the messenger tactic.
Regardless of what you claim has been discredited, the following remain as FACTS:
1. Yehuda Hiss, Israel�s chief pathologist and, from 1988 through 2004, director of Israel�s state morgue, the L. Greenberg Institute of Forensic Medicine at Abu Kabir, was removed for stealing body parts; and
2. Israel is under investigation by the International Court of Justice for war crimes relating to organ harvesting.
| Quote: |
| And oh bacasper, your link in the OP (at the bottom) no longer works. Could it be because the host realizes this was a B.S story? |
Wishful thinking. There is and always was a single link in my OP (at the top). It is still there and working. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:00 am Post subject: |
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From:
Israeli Organ Trafficking and Theft: From Moldova to Palestine
By Alison Weir
Nancy Scheper-Hughes is Chancellor�s Professor of Medical Anthropology at the University of California Berkeley, the founder of Organ Watch, and the author of scholarly books and articles on organ trafficking. She is the pundit mainstream media call upon when they need expert commentary on the topic.5
While Scheper-Hughes emphasizes that traffickers and procurers come from numerous nations and ethnicities, including Americans and Arabs, she is unflinchingly honest in speaking about the Israeli connection:
�Israel is at the top,� she states. �It has tentacles reaching out worldwide.�6 |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:47 am Post subject: |
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I don't know where the organs come from, but it looks like it actually is a problem in Israel. This Fox New article http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,534838,00.html says the organs are bought from Israelis, but doesn't really say who in Israel they're purchased from. With Israel being a two-tiered society with Arab Israelis being second-class citizens that don't have the same financial opportunities, it seems likely that they're the ones who have been preyed upon by the financial predator doctor flipping organs for profit.
That being said, I don't think it's bad if Israel is recycling organs from Palestinian militants, as long as they're killed for reasons of protecting Israeli citizens from attack and not being killed for the specific purpose of harvesting organs. However, if that is being done, then convicted murderers in Israel regardless of race or religion should be subject to organ harvesting upon death. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:03 am Post subject: |
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I really think this is distracting from the REAL issues.
1. This is an old story, as far as current events go.
2. I have watched several interviews with the Swedish journalist whose article started this fuss and he outlines and clearly states THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT ISRAEL DID ANYTHING SUCH. In his article or elsewhere. He merely was asking questions not coming to any conclusion. He himself does not believe Israel has anything to do with organ theft. Nor do I.
3. Yes, there are malfeasants and criminals everywhere partaking in this but I really don't think this is anything of the Israeli state's doing. They are doing okay in other areas of gross violations of human rights and indecencies.
All of this is a very suspicious smear campaign which distracts from the very factual and serious issues of Israeli occupation, imprisonment, torture and barbarity against civilians and children.
Let's call a spade a spade and forget this very slanderous path of mostly make believe. Like the pogroms and everyone whispering that Jews steal babies and suck their blood etc....
DD
http://eflclassroom.com |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:37 am Post subject: Re: Gaza: Israel's Organ Farm |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Trevor wrote: |
Discredited? No it wasn't. It was denied, by Netanyahu -- a thug. Certainly not discredited.
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Yes it has. Type in "Swedish story about Israeli organs discredited" into Google and you will get quite a few articles about it.
Here's one
http://si-info.org/index.php?id=456
The journalist who wrote this story has now admitted he never had any proof.
And the family mentioned in the article, the Ghanems, deny remembering they ever spoke to any Swedish journalists.
The PA also seems to think it's a rumor. |
I love this debate tactic: "You're wrong. Just google it."
I gave you a link. Plenty more where that comes from.
One can google any side one desires in just about any debate. It is almost as good as your attacking the messenger tactic. |
I'm not going to print out all the links which say this story is false. The facts remain that this is a story without merit as the journalist himself has admitted. When the guy who wrote this story says he doesn't have any proof that's the end of the debate as far as any trust or legitimacy can be attached to the story. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
I really think this is distracting from the REAL issues.
1. This is an old story, as far as current events go.
2. I have watched several interviews with the Swedish journalist whose article started this fuss and he outlines and clearly states THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT ISRAEL DID ANYTHING SUCH. In his article or elsewhere. He merely was asking questions not coming to any conclusion. He himself does not believe Israel has anything to do with organ theft. Nor do I.
http://eflclassroom.com |
I rarely agree with you sir, but I must admit you have hit the nail on the head. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:22 am Post subject: |
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This reads like an anti-foreigner piece in the Korea Times.
There is as much evidence that Israelis are organ-stealing ghouls as there foreigners in Korea are criminals and paedophiles.
In other words, its a lot of racist-motivated BS with no actual facts to back it. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| Reggie wrote: |
| I don't know where the organs come from, but it looks like it actually is a problem in Israel. |
It not only most certainly IS a problem in Israel, but according to Scheper-Hughes, Israel is at the pinnacle of the problem.
| ddeubel wrote: |
I really think this is distracting from the REAL issues.
1. This is an old story, as far as current events go. |
The above article by Allison Weir appears in the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, November 2009.
| Quote: |
2. I have watched several interviews with the Swedish journalist whose article started this fuss and he outlines and clearly states THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT ISRAEL DID ANYTHING SUCH. In his article or elsewhere. He merely was asking questions not coming to any conclusion. He himself does not believe Israel has anything to do with organ theft. Nor do I.
3. Yes, there are malfeasants and criminals everywhere partaking in this but I really don't think this is anything of the Israeli state's doing. They are doing okay in other areas of gross violations of human rights and indecencies.
All of this is a very suspicious smear campaign which distracts from the very factual and serious issues of Israeli occupation, imprisonment, torture and barbarity against civilians and children.
Let's call a spade a spade and forget this very slanderous path of mostly make believe. Like the pogroms and everyone whispering that Jews steal babies and suck their blood etc....
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Perhaps you meant to say, as TUM did, that THERE IS NO PROOF THAT ISRAEL DID ANYTHING SUCH, and there may not be. Of course, many things happen which cannot be proven.
But there certainly is A LOT OF EVIDENCE of such, despite the hurling of the anti-Semitism epithet:
| Quote: |
| Israel immediately accused Bostrom and the newspaper of �anti-Semitism,� and charged that suggesting Israelis could be involved in the illicit removal of body parts constituted a modern �blood libel� (medieval stories of Jews killing people for their blood). |
http://israelinsider.ning.com/profiles/blogs/netanyahu-to-press-sweden-to
From the above Weir article:
| Quote: |
| The fact is, however, that Israeli organ harvesting�sometimes with Israeli governmental funding and the participation of high Israeli officials, prominent Israeli physicians, and Israeli ministries�has been documented for many years. Among the victims have been Palestinians. |
| Quote: |
Scheper-Hughes discussed the two motivations of Israeli traffickers. One was greed. The other was somewhat chilling: �Revenge, restitution�reparation for the Holocaust.�
Israeli brokers told her �it�s kind of �an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. We�re going to get every single kidney and liver and heart that we can. The world owes it to us.��
Scheper-Hughes �even heard doctors saying that.�
For many years Israelis have gone on what experts call �transplant tourism. Sometimes body parts are obtained from those freshly dead; more often from the desperately needy. While affluent people from numerous countries and ethnicities engage in this practice, Israel is unique in several significant ways.
First, Israelis engage in this at an extraordinarily high rate. According to a 2001 BBC report, Israelis buy more kidneys per capita than any other population.
Second, Israelis have the lowest donor rate in the world�one-fifth that of Europe, according to BBC. The Israeli news service Ynet reports, �the percentage of organs donated among Jews is the lowest of all the ethnic groups.�11
Third, the Israeli government has enabled the practice. For many years the Israeli health system subsidized its citizens� �transplant holidays,� reimbursing Israelis $80,000 for medical operations abroad. Much of the remaining costs could often be obtained from government-subsidized12 Israeli insurance plans.13 In addition, Israel�s Ministry of Defense was directly involved.
Scheper-Hughes discussed Israeli organ trafficking in detail in 2001 in published testimony to the Subcommittee on International Relations and Human Rights of the House Foreign Affairs Committee.14 In her extensive testimony, Scheper-Hughes stated that although Israel had become a pariah for its organ policies, Israeli officials exhibited �amazing tolerance�toward outlawed �transplant tourism.�� |
Finally, I find it very hard to believe the International Court of Justice would take on a case if THERE WERE NO EVIDENCE for it. |
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Safron
Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Location: portland, or
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:52 am Post subject: |
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I'll save everyone's time. This article essentially says, "the story is unlikely to be true because transplants are difficult." The latter half of the article actually confirms much of what Scheper-Hughes' claims.
This is just the basic anti-Semitic epithet, blaming every recent anti-Semitic event around the world on the publication of Bostrom's article.
Edited to correct punctuation.
Last edited by bacasper on Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:30 am Post subject: |
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The Swedish journalist says he has proof and he's going to write another article.
Say, let me ask you something. Let's say you had to buy a clock radio. You can go to two stores. One is a swedish-owned electronics store. The other is an Israeli-owned electonics store. All things being equal, who would you trust to sell you a clock radio, the Swede or the Israeli?
http://www.russiatoday.com/Top_News/2009-10-12/swedish-israeli-organ-wars.html
Swedish-Israeli organ wars to continue
permalinke-mail story to a friendprint versionPublished 12 October, 2009, 20:43
Edited 13 October, 2009, 03:01
A Swedish journalist whose article in August claimed Israeli soldiers were killing Palestinians to harvest their organs says he will provide more explanations in a new article.
Donald Bostrom � a Swedish journalist, photographer and writer tells RT that, because his first article had caused �a storm and confusion,� he feels responsible to provide more details of the issue in his new report about alleged organ harvesting by the Israeli military.
�For the Israeli authorities, this will not be of any surprise. I will just continue to explain a little bit about some cases that were proven to have happened in Israel,� he explained to RT.
Read more
Donald Bostrom�s report caused an outcry in Israel, with the government calling it anti-Semitic and demanding an apology and condemnation from Sweden.
Stockholm refused to interfere, saying it would not limit press freedom. Relations between the two countries have deteriorated over the scandal. Some Israelis were even calling for Swedish goods to be boycotted in the country.
3.7/5 (11 votes)
rate this story
discuss it |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
The Swedish journalist says he has proof
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No he clearly said that he didn't. What he DID say is that he knows of some isolated cases.
But he does not have proof that organ theft is commonplace or official policy in Israel. He even uses the term "alleged". |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: Gaza: Israel's Organ Farm |
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| bacasper wrote: |
[q
1. Yehuda Hiss, Israel�s chief pathologist and, from 1988 through 2004, director of Israel�s state morgue, the L. Greenberg Institute of Forensic Medicine at Abu Kabir, was removed for stealing body parts; and
2. Israel is under investigation by the International Court of Justice for war crimes relating to organ harvesting.
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1. He stole Israeli body parts as well. This doesn't really back up the title of your thread.
2. The ICJ is doing an investigation...that's its mandate. |
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