|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
 Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:32 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: |
| Egypt mufti says Swiss minaret ban insults Muslims |
Umm, well, I wouldn't exactly say that it COMPLIMENTS Muslims. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Egypt mufti says Swiss minaret ban insults Muslims |
Umm, well, I wouldn't exactly say that it COMPLIMENTS Muslims. |
The should really clean up their own house before crying, crying, crying about ours. A ban on a type of building is nothing compared to the living hell that non-muslims experience in many muslim states. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| mises wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Egypt mufti says Swiss minaret ban insults Muslims |
Umm, well, I wouldn't exactly say that it COMPLIMENTS Muslims. |
The should really clean up their own house before crying, crying, crying about ours. A ban on a type of building is nothing compared to the living hell that non-muslims experience in many muslim states. |
Yeah, but that's like saying that we shouldn't get too worked up about western democracies banning the Communist Party during the Cold War, because those bans were nothing compared to what was going on in Russia and China. I would think it's obvious that democracies hold themselves to a different standard than dictatorships, even when dealing with people who support(or are maybe just insufficently critical of) those dictatorships. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| That's fine. But when the muslim crybabies begin the global PR jihad against the Swiss, their (the crybaby) comparative (total) silence on the Copts et al should be noted. Again and again. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| mises wrote: |
| That's fine. But when the muslim crybabies begin the global PR jihad against the Swiss, their (the crybaby) comparative (total) silence on the Copts et al should be noted. Again and again. |
Well, if I personally were a Swiss citizen, I'd be pretty pissed off about this ban on minarets, simply because I'd think it an affront to democratic values. And it would have nothing to do with what the "Muslim crybabies" were saying, and whether or not that was consistent with other things they were saying. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Well, if I personally were a Swiss citizen, I'd be pretty pissed off about this ban on minarets, simply because I'd think it an affront to democratic values. |
No, it isn't. The people democratically voted to change building codes. That's very democratic. Two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner, right?
I'm sure you won't be surprised, but I'd vote (twice) for a similar ban in Canada. I'd vote for a hell of a lot more too.
| Quote: |
| And it would have nothing to do with what the "Muslim crybabies" were saying, and whether or not that was consistent with other things they were saying. |
The muslims grievance industry is very good at exploiting the emotional sensitivities of left/liberal Occidentals. They push all the right buttons. Yet they are the largest force for regression on planet earth. I will never stop finding this little pow-wow the leftists have with the muslims to be nothing short of spectacularly insane. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Arthur Dent wrote: |
I think I see what you're getting at Ya-ta Boy but that wasn't the intent of that sentence.
I simply meant that within the framework of the Swiss nation, this was a decision they had the right to make. Not necessarily moral in everyone's view.
Have a look at this G&M article which offers a different point of view:
| Quote: |
Of the country's 400,000 Muslims, representing less than 5 per cent of the population, the largest group are of European background, with ancestors from the historically Muslim Balkan countries of southeast Europe � in other words, they are as culturally and historically European as any Christian Swiss citizen.
The politics of Swiss Muslims are notably liberal and democratic, more so in many respects than the rest of the Swiss population. Burkas and other conservative head coverings are almost unknown, and there are no mosques calling for sharia law or any other form of political Islam.
And if Swiss voters came to believe that minarets are symbols of creeping fundamentalism, they were almost comically misled. |
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/swiss-minaret-ban-emboldens-europes-extremists/article1383413/
It seems Europe's courts are already trying to overturn it. Though the last line in the following quote states that some are looking to follow Switzerland's lead.
| Quote: |
| Even as European human-rights courts began attempts to block the Swiss amendment Monday, extremist politicians across Europe were examining their countries' laws to see if a similar referendum could be accomplished. |
Of course it is hardly fair to make someone a citizen and then restrict their rights because of their religious beliefs. But it is within the rights of its citizens to protect themselves from threats. The question for me is more whether there is a real threat, and whether the decision by the Swiss is an effective response. I think it is not. |
If I misinterpreted your statement, sorry. I don't think we're too far apart in our views.
CentralCali posted excerpts from the Swiss constitution where guarantees of religious freedom is explicitly stated. From what I see, the majority of Swiss voters just violated their own constitution. In other words, they had the power, although not the right, to do so.
This is an interesting quote:
| Quote: |
Quote:
Of the country's 400,000 Muslims, representing less than 5 per cent of the population, the largest group are of European background, with ancestors from the historically Muslim Balkan countries of southeast Europe � in other words, they are as culturally and historically European as any Christian Swiss citizen.
The politics of Swiss Muslims are notably liberal and democratic, more so in many respects than the rest of the Swiss population. Burkas and other conservative head coverings are almost unknown, and there are no mosques calling for sharia law or any other form of political Islam.
And if Swiss voters came to believe that minarets are symbols of creeping fundamentalism, they were almost comically misled.
|
If it's anywhere near accurate, the Swiss right wing is transparently going out of its way to stir up trouble. They've now positioned themselves to be self-righteous when/if some disgruntled hothead pulls a stunt. I can hear the wingers rehearsing, "I told you so" in 5 languages.
I wonder what trade reps of all those Swiss export companies with accounts in Turkey, etc will have to say at their next sales pitch. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
youtuber
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Is it... |
|
|
| mises wrote: |
http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/11/the_swiss_ban_minarets.asp
| Quote: |
| Is it simple racism for, say, the Dutch to want their nation to stay Dutch -- not just in terms of geography -- in terms of language, food, religion, government, architecture and all the things that make up a culture? |
Is it? |
I don't think it is racist at all. But it is easily led that way by certain people with agendas.
What makes the world and travelling interesting is these cultural differences that define each country. What seems to be happening in the west is the development of a homogenous culture and way of living across all countries. The only real difference is language and climate, but the language thing is slowly disappearing as well as English becomes more and more prevalent. As it is, the way we currently live and go about our lives in the West is now basically the same.
That is why Asia is so appealing to travellers. Because it is Fu-ked Up. The only real point now to travelling to various countries in the west is to sightsee, which can easily be done on Google Earth.
As it is, I currently have no desire to visit the UK or Australia because I know that culturally, they are very similar to Canada. So what is the point? Pay $4000 to see some old buildings and bump elbows with the throngs of Chinese tourists? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Well, if I personally were a Swiss citizen, I'd be pretty pissed off about this ban on minarets, simply because I'd think it an affront to democratic values. |
No, it isn't. The people democratically voted to change building codes. That's very democratic. Two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner, right?
|
I find it a little odd that you quote the "Two wolves and a sheep" adage, since that's usually used to argue against defining democracy simply in terms of respecting majority rule. Which is what I am arguing against here.
Democracy, for me, also includes things like respect for certain rights, including minority rights, regardless of what the majority may vote for in a referendum. You yourself have been a pretty harsh critic of things like the War On Terror etc. If the Americans had held a nationwide referendum, and the majority voted to legalize all forms of torture on terror suspects, would you consider that to be victory for democracy?
But okay. I'll concede to the narrower definition of democracy, and re-phrase my point as: "I'd be pissed off because I think that this ban is an affront to peoples' rights". Whether those rights are properly linked to the concept of democracy is a topic for another discussion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I'm just grinding an axe. My out of the mainstream views on this topic have been pretty widely disseminated here. The thread is just to gauge the spirit of the times, and how they are a'changin. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
youtuber
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| On the other hand wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| That's fine. But when the muslim crybabies begin the global PR jihad against the Swiss, their (the crybaby) comparative (total) silence on the Copts et al should be noted. Again and again. |
Well, if I personally were a Swiss citizen, I'd be pretty pissed off about this ban on minarets, simply because I'd think it an affront to democratic values. And it would have nothing to do with what the "Muslim crybabies" were saying, and whether or not that was consistent with other things they were saying. |
Yeah well, you're not Swiss. And you don't live there. So you don't have a context or feeling for the tensions there. They expected only about 30% support for the ban, but the actual vote revealed 57% support. Obviously, a lot of Swiss are hiding their true feelings in order to appear "PC".
A similar thing is happening in France now with the banning of burkas. Some aspects of muslim culture are clearly not welcome in the West. It would appear that the preservation of a traditional national identity and traditional culture trump over democratic values.
I agree that banning architecture is a bit silly, but those bans are in place already. I just can't decide to go and build a pink castle in my neighbourhood with unicorns on the roof. There are regulations that say I cannot. I have to go with a certain style that fits with the motif of the neighbourhood. So why should muslims get a pass? Because it is religion? Well maybe pink castles and unicorns are my religion! I have rights too, dammit! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've driven by several mosques with minarets in the USA and never really thought much about it. I guess I had something important to do instead.
I saw a house just this evening that had three Santas on the roof with several deer. Two Santas were lit up and one was in the dark. If someone wants to have minarets at their temple or Santas on their roof, to each their own.
I saw some Lindt candy bars at the grocery store, but didn't feel like the Swiss are threatening American culture. Maybe Hershey feels that way. I don't.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Arthur Dent
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Location: Kochu whirld
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
^
http://www.lindt.com/int/swf/eng/chocolate-gift/
Ummmm. Lindt Chocolate. My favorite! Especially the towering full-dimensional iconic bars - dum-dum-dum-dum-dum...dum^dum^dum^...and so on... (2001 Space Odyssey Music theme)
(Distracting Govt/ Provocateur post) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My favorite too, Arthur, especially the dark chocolate truffle bars in the blue package. Those are near the top of the list of the many awesome things that make life great.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| youtuber wrote: |
| I agree that banning architecture is a bit silly |
It isn't 'architecture', it's a symbol. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
