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Fat_Elvis
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: In the ghetto
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 Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: For Those Who Dislike Techno - Henry Rollins Rant |
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Some thoughts on this thread (re:cursive, I'll take the bait here)
| morrisonhotel wrote: |
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| And it seems a bit rich for a former punk musician to claim techno has no musical merit, considering the lack of musicianship in a lot of techno |
Did you mean punk? The idea that punk lacks musicianship is elitist crap. Anyone who ever says that to me, I direct them straight to The Skids. Incredible composition. |
Yes I meant punk, duly edited. I haven't heard the Skids, but I'm thinking of the Ramones, the Sex Pistols etc. It's not a criticism on my part, but there was a strong DIY aesthetic at work. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIY_ethic or read Greil Marcus' excellent history of punk (amongst other things) Lipstick Traces
| Quote: |
| Music should conjure up emotions, have some meaning, take you back to a happy time in your life |
If you're saying that techno can't conjure up emotions I think you listening to the wrong kind of techno.
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| There are no organic (natural) instruments like guitars to pluck and drums to hit. |
If you don't like techno that's ok listen to something else. But I think your dichotomy between good 'natural' music and cold 'artificial' music is false. Guitars are as much a technology as a drum machine and a sampler.
| Quote: |
I have yet to see a really good DJ; someone that actually makes music as opposed to ripping tunes off of other people and laying down some ridiculous and repetitive backbeat.
If I had to see one DJ that would completely change my view, who would that one soul be? |
For the most part I have to agree with you, the whole superstar DJ thing is crap. That wasn't really part of the techno or broader dance scene early on, it was foisted on later by the record industry to cash in on a scene that doesn't produce albums but singles. So a superstar DJ with a mix album was a marketing concept to move units, IMO.
There are however a few DJs who have really blown me away. Seeing Carl Cox play in 1990 changed the way I thought about music, he was really using samples from records on four decks to make his own soundtrack. I haven't seen him since though, don't know what he's like now. Jeff Mills was pretty awesome too. There are other DJs playing different kinds of music eg hip hop turntablists who do something pretty cool too. |
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morrisonhotel
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Location: Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: For Those Who Dislike Techno - Henry Rollins Rant |
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| Fat_Elvis wrote: |
Yes I meant punk, duly edited. I haven't heard the Skids, but I'm thinking of the Ramones, the Sex Pistols etc. It's not a criticism on my part, but there was a strong DIY aesthetic at work. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIY_ethic or read Greil Marcus' excellent history of punk (amongst other things) Lipstick Traces
| Quote: |
| Music should conjure up emotions, have some meaning, take you back to a happy time in your life |
If you're saying that techno can't conjure up emotions I think you listening to the wrong kind of techno.
| Quote: |
| There are no organic (natural) instruments like guitars to pluck and drums to hit. |
If you don't like techno that's ok listen to something else. But I think your dichotomy between good 'natural' music and cold 'artificial' music is false. Guitars are as much a technology as a drum machine and a sampler. |
I have read that. Personally, I've always preferred Jon Savage's England's Dreaming as a definitive book on punk. I really do urge anyone who mistakes the DIY aesthetic for musical incompetency (not that I'm saying you are Fat_Elvis) to have a listen to the Skids and some Big Country. Stuart Adamson has an unbelievable understanding of composition. He really was a fantastic guitarist. I should also, with the OP in mind, put Greg Ginn in that category as well. He's not as technically proficient as Adamson, but he has a great understanding of chord progression. The musicians that are so often derided as being technically incompetent have all turned in to great musicians. Steve Jones, one the main targets of such thinking, is now a session guitarist.
You're absolutely right on DJs. I challenge anyone who dismisses DJing as being not organic (or, as is so often the case, easy) to buy themselves some decks and try and become good. It's as difficult a thing to master as any musical instrument. To be a great DJ, you have to have as developed an understanding of how to compose music as any other musician. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: For Those Who Dislike Techno - Henry Rollins Rant |
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| morrisonhotel wrote: |
To be a great DJ, you have to have as developed an understanding of how to compose music as any other musician. |
relax.... putting on a record or a Mp3 which is being used these days..
and finding the right place to mix in the other track is not difficult..
trying to compose music is...
now a DJ/producer/engineer is different.. he actually has to create original music.. a dj is just playing someone elses talent! his talent is knowing what music to play and when... |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: For Those Who Dislike Techno - Henry Rollins Rant |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| morrisonhotel wrote: |
To be a great DJ, you have to have as developed an understanding of how to compose music as any other musician. |
relax.... putting on a record or a Mp3 which is being used these days..
and finding the right place to mix in the other track is not difficult..
trying to compose music is...
now a DJ/producer/engineer is different.. he actually has to create original music.. a dj is just playing someone elses talent! his talent is knowing what music to play and when... |
That's a good point, though it does help to know a thing or 2 about tempo, and a more cautious DJ will be concerned about the pitches of melodic elements matching between tracks as well. Then you have to keep the two tracks locked at a tempo and know when to fade one or the other out. It's even more cool if you know where to throw in some flange, loops, wah, etc. effects. I wouldn't consider a DJ as playing an instrument as some out there do, but as a technician who keeps people excited and moving by maintaining a steady and well-considered flow of dance-able sound. Crummy DJing is evidenced by an empty dancefloor in most cases, and I've seen some DJ's play really obscure or unpopular tunes, do it well, and pack the house. |
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ropebreezy
Joined: 27 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| David Lee Roth wrote: |
Gotta agree with him for the most part. I'd rather listen to another Neil Young wanna-be strumming his version of Hey Ya than some DJ posing as a musician. I have yet to see a really good DJ; someone that actually makes music as opposed to ripping tunes off of other people and laying down some ridiculous and repetitive backbeat.
If I had to see one DJ that would completely change my view, who would that one soul be? |
You do realize that most edm tracks are created by DJs right? I'm curious about your definition of what a musician is.
| conrad2 wrote: |
"Techno" music is fine in a club at 3 am drunk or on drugs. Thats it.
Music should conjure up emotions, have some meaning, take you back to a happy time in your life, "The sound track of your life" if you will.
Imagine you are an old man sitting with your wife on your porch, watching your grandkids play. "Remember Dear, the night we met, the song they were playing?" "OONSA OONSA OONSA< BOM BOM BOM."
Wasnt it John Lennon who said "Just give BOM BOM BOM BOM a chance." |
You don't know what you're talking about.
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
In literally all genres of music, most of the music in that genre is rubbish, but maybe 5% or 10% of it is golden - jazz, classical, techno, metal, hiphop, everything. I'm far from an expert, but some techno is astonishing and some of the best music I've ever heard.
And yeah - Black Flag and Rollins' Band do nothing for me at all. And Rollins wasn't funny or interesting or profound at all in that vid. |
Pretty much this.
| Dev wrote: |
| For me, techno (like Hollywood sci-fi movies) is mostly about technology and less about art. Okay, if you like that kind of thing. |
You have a very short-sighted view of what art really is.
My take: basically Rollins has no idea what he's talking about and one could make the same jokes about punk music if given the chance.
Electronic dance music is different from conventional music and the fact that it's becoming more popular I guess disturbs some people. Good producers in this genre will spend months putting together the right sounds (physically with synthesizers or through a complex music writing program like Reason), the right composition, and the right feel to make a good dance tune. Someone please tell me how this is logically any different from a classical music composer, besides the obvious differences in genre styles.
What I like about edm: it's not f***ing pretentious. I don't care about how you fell in love with this girl that one time (75% of every mainstream song out there). I don't care about how your mom died and it's sad. I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR LIFE EXPERIENCES.
I suppose this is what disturbs people about edm. It's music for music's sake and I guess...what? That's not enough? You need to listen to some asshat in saggy jeans or some tattooed jerkoff tell you about his feelings? Lets cut that bull****. Edm is about people putting sounds together in interesting and creative ways for the purpose of dancing to.
On that note, I'm not saying there isn't any value in mainstream music. All I'm saying is edm is different, and, most importantly, valid. It's really irritating to hear people talk about "techno" when really, they don't even listen to it in the first place and so, really, have no idea what the hell they're talking about.
I'll finish this probably tl;dr rant with my agreement that DJs get more attention than they deserve (most of the time). Most DJs are not proficient enough in what it take to be a good DJ to warrant any sort of attention. However, those that can mix seamlessly, read a crowd, scratch, layer tracks, use appropriate effects, play GOOD tunes, and, most importantly, PRODUCE, deserve attention imho. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:39 am Post subject: Re: For Those Who Dislike Techno - Henry Rollins Rant |
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| djsmnc wrote: |
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| morrisonhotel wrote: |
To be a great DJ, you have to have as developed an understanding of how to compose music as any other musician. |
relax.... putting on a record or a Mp3 which is being used these days..
and finding the right place to mix in the other track is not difficult..
trying to compose music is...
now a DJ/producer/engineer is different.. he actually has to create original music.. a dj is just playing someone elses talent! his talent is knowing what music to play and when... |
That's a good point, though it does help to know a thing or 2 about tempo, and a more cautious DJ will be concerned about the pitches of melodic elements matching between tracks as well. Then you have to keep the two tracks locked at a tempo and know when to fade one or the other out. It's even more cool if you know where to throw in some flange, loops, wah, etc. effects. I wouldn't consider a DJ as playing an instrument as some out there do, but as a technician who keeps people excited and moving by maintaining a steady and well-considered flow of dance-able sound. Crummy DJing is evidenced by an empty dancefloor in most cases, and I've seen some DJ's play really obscure or unpopular tunes, do it well, and pack the house. |
I'd say DJ's are mixers, not really technicians and definitely not musicians.
The people who make the Techno tracks in the first place might have a little creativity but they're essentially people who have learned to use the machines really well.
A few really talented people over the last few decades have used electronic sounds very creatively......I'm thinking mostly Aphex Twin aka Richard James.....Kraftwerk...Daft Punk.....Brian Eno....etc
I think Rollins is railing against the idea of just, "putting a donk on it".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckMvj1piK58
You gotta watch this.....funny as.... |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:56 am Post subject: Re: For Those Who Dislike Techno - Henry Rollins Rant |
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Wow...just wow |
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Dev
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| re:cursive wrote: |
| Fat_Elvis wrote: |
I like techno and I still found this funny. I hope someone samples it and puts it in a song.  |
It has been done. It even features 'Techno Viking'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf13MmZIcLs
It seems like this old rant of his will never die. I'm staying out of it this time. |
Wow! Isn't that clever! Someone did a hatchet job to Henry's rant. See just what they did to Henry's rant backs Henry's point. Someone here took their Mac and did a cut & paste job with it. Henry wins! No one was able to come up with a witty response so they just vandalized his work. Proved his point.
Hey, some people thing cutting up newspaper articles and re-arranging them to make something new is art. |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Dev wrote: |
| re:cursive wrote: |
| Fat_Elvis wrote: |
| I like techno and I still found this funny. I hope someone samples it and puts it in a song. |
It has been done. It even features 'Techno Viking'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf13MmZIcLs
It seems like this old rant of his will never die. I'm staying out of it this time. |
Wow! Isn't that clever! Someone did a hatchet job to Henry's rant. See just what they did to Henry's rant backs Henry's point. Someone here took their Mac and did a cut & paste job with it. Henry wins! No one was able to come up with a witty response so they just vandalized his work. Proved his point.
Hey, some people thing cutting up newspaper articles and re-arranging them to make something new is art. |
Actually, according to most postmodern philosophers it is...I take it you aren't a big fan of Warhol? |
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