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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher, you might find this interesting: http://reason.com/blog/2009/10/14/chile-attempts-to-out-america
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| It's not really about socialism versus capitalism. |
Actually, in Venezuela, the issue is socialism vs. capitalism. Chavez is nationalizing the economy. A nationalized economy = socialism.
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| Most economies are mixed economies. |
A mixed economy is not one where the state owns the means of production and seizes firms who raise prices after a huge currency devaluation.
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| Chavez should have focused on building industries with the oil revenues not nationalizing everything. |
Building industries. And a puppy under every Christmas tree.
Adventurer, "building industries" isn't something that government can do. Government can either facilitate or not entrepreneurial activity.
Here is what oil revenue does:
http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/4504
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| I mean we could have had the situation of a Chile where there wasn't this investment in subways. |
So, subways = left? Were the military governments in Korea "left"? Don't answer that. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Mises: Chileans want only the right kind of limited immigration; not open immigration. They remain far more racist than most Americans. Just ask them about Peruvian and Bolivian would-be immigrants; and also ask them about their own Indians. Chileans articulate and cultivate all kinds of self-serving myths about how good they are, etc., just like anyone else. And just as we do not take the Americans' myths about America at face-value, so we ought not take the Chileans' myths about Chile at face-value, either.
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Adventurer: after E. Frei, the presidents who succeeded A. Pinochet certainly called themselves "socialists." But that represented little more than emotional declaration as far as I can tell. They never went outside the constitution or political economy that Pinochet had created and bequeathed them -- except to finally strip him of his own self-declared immunity, of course.
They remained, in any case, neoliberals and believers in free-market economics to the core. American presidents from FDR to R. Nixon went well to the left of them as far as social-economic policy goes. And this, of course, has been very good to Chile. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Adventurer, "building industries" isn't something that government can do. Government can either facilitate or not entrepreneurial activity. |
Governments can participate in entrepreneurial activity just like any other entity can. In the West, we often expect our government not to do so, but there's nothing inherently stopping a government from setting up a business, hiring workers, producing a product, and selling that product. Some people just assert that the government is inherently bad at it. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Governments can participate in entrepreneurial activity just like any other entity can. |
Right. Like the Soviet Union's obvious success in this field. Or China before Deng, for that matter. Mao achived the impossible with back-yard steel production.
Further, F. Castro has worked economic miracles in Cuba. And Hugo Chavez, too, as this thread's OP shows. Take his enthusiastic participation in cultivating media entrepreneurial activity, for instance... |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| And the buses are no longer the psycho, screaming, dangerous buses but rather fewer and quieter |
Expected. Clearly, the Chileans have raised the moral standards and the ideals of the people by improving their material conditions.
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| I mean you could say Norway and Sweden are Leftist, but they apply a lot of capitalist economic ideas and are prosperous |
Yes. If one were to look at the recently published Index of Economic Freedom, Norway and Sweden will - surprisingly to most observers, given the lack of clarity about what is socialist, capitalist and mixed amongst the general population - be cited as, in many ways, more economically-free than the United States. Clearly, these countries' large social safety nets couldn't possibly be paid for, were it not for an enormously wealthy private sector. The Norwegians and the Swedes, it's true, pay close to 50% in tax. But what is less commonly observed is that this still leaves them with an average take-home salary of $50,000. Norway can afford it, otherwise it couldn't be done. And the reason they can afford it is their economic freedom and empowerment of individual success. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:47 am Post subject: |
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Jan. 26 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is selling dollars from central bank reserves for the first time in six years in what Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and Barclays Plc say is a futile bid to shore up the bolivar in unregulated trading.
The central bank, under orders from Chavez to �burn the hands� of speculators betting against the bolivar, said it sold $179 million since Jan. 13, the first dollar auctions since trading restrictions imposed in 2003 spawned the unofficial market. Chavez said on Jan. 15 he wanted to strengthen the bolivar more than 30 percent in unregulated trading, where it fetches 6.3 per dollar, to contain inflation after he devalued the official rate as much as 50 percent to 4.3.
The plan will fail because Chavez�s nationalizations and land seizures are prompting Venezuelans to pull money from the country, said Alberto Ramos, a Goldman Sachs economist. More than $93 billion has left the South American nation since 2005, according to the central bank�s capital account data.
�You have a problem that can�t be resolved by throwing reserves at it,� Ramos said in a phone interview from New York. Venezuelans �pay a huge premium to get their assets out of the country, out of the reach of the government, so that they can�t confiscate them,� he said. �Under that situation, $20 billion, $50 billion or $100 billion is not enough. The entire capital stock of the economy could leave.� |
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=a.eiJxW7dsGY
21st Century Socialism has failed.
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While the world has been preoccupied with the crisis in Haiti, Latin America has quietly passed through a tipping point in the ideological conflict that has polarized the region -- and paralyzed U.S. diplomacy -- for most of the past decade.
The result boils down to this: Hugo Ch�vez's "socialism for the 21st century" has been defeated and is on its way to collapse.
During the past two weeks, just before and after the earthquake outside Port-au-Prince, the following happened: Ch�vez was forced to devalue the Venezuelan currency, and impose and then revoke massive power cuts in the Venezuelan capital as the country reeled from recession, double-digit inflation and the possible collapse of the national power grid. In Honduras, a seven-month crisis triggered by the attempt of a Ch�vez client to rupture the constitutional order quietly ended with a deal that will send him into exile even as a democratically elected moderate is sworn in as president.
Last but not least, a presidential election in Chile, the region's most successful economy, produced the first victory by a right-wing candidate since dictator Augusto Pinochet was forced from office two decades ago. Sebasti�n Pi�era, the industrialist and champion of free markets who won, has already done something that no leader from Chile or most other Latin American nations has been willing to do in recent years: stand up to Ch�vez.
Venezuela is "not a democracy," Pi�era said during his campaign. He also said, "Two great models have been shaped in Latin America: One of them led by people like Hugo Ch�vez in Venezuela, Castro in Cuba and Ortega in Nicaragua. . . . I definitely think the second model is best for Chile. And that's the model we are going to follow: democracy, rule of law, freedom of expression, alternation of power without caudillismo."
Pi�era was only stating the obvious -- but it was more than his Socialist predecessor, Michelle Bachelet, or Brazil's Luiz In�cio Lula da Silva has been willing to say openly. That silence hamstrung the Bush and the Obama administrations, which felt, rightly or wrongly, that they should not be alone in pointing out Ch�vez's assault on democracy. Pi�era has now provided Washington an opportunity to raise its voice about Venezuelan human rights violations.
He has done it at a moment when Ch�vez is already reeling from diplomatic blows. Honduras is one. Though the country is tiny, the power struggle between its established political elite and Ch�vez acolyte Manuel Zelaya turned into a regional battle between supporters and opponents of the Ch�vez left -- with Brazil and other leftist democracies straddling the middle.
Then there is the meltdown Ch�vez faces at home. Despite the recovery in oil prices, the Venezuelan economy is deep in recession and continues to sink even as the rest of Latin America recovers. Economists guess inflation could rise to 60 percent in the coming months. Meanwhile, due to a drought, the country is threatened with the shutdown of a hydroelectric plant that supplies 70 percent of its electricity. And Ch�vez's failure to invest in new plants means there is no backup. There is also the crime epidemic -- homicides have tripled since Ch�vez took office, making Caracas one of the world's most dangerous cities. At a recent baseball game a sign in the crowd read: "3 Strikes-Lights-Water-Insecurity/President You Struck Out."
Ch�vez's thugs beat up those baseball fans. The man himself is ranting about the U.S. "occupation" of Haiti; his state television even claimed that the U.S. Navy caused the earthquake using a new secret weapon. On Sunday his government ordered cable networks to drop an opposition-minded television channel.
But Chavez's approval ratings are still sinking: They've dropped to below 50 percent in Venezuela and to 34 percent in the rest of the region. The caudillo has survived a lot of bad news before and may well survive this. But the turning point in the battle between authoritarian populism and liberal democracy in Latin America has passed -- and Ch�vez has lost. |
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/24/AR2010012402379.html?wpisrc=nl_pmheadline |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:02 am Post subject: |
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http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N11226112.htm
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CARACAS, March 11 (Reuters) - Homicides in Venezuela have quadrupled during President Hugo Chavez's 11 years in power, with two people murdered every hour, according to new figures from a non-governmental organization.
The Venezuelan Observatory of Violence (OVV), whose data is widely followed in the absence of official statistics, said the South American nation has one of the highest crime rates on the continent, with 54 homicides per 100,000 citizens in 2009.
That rate is only surpassed in Latin America by El Salvador where 70 in every 100,000 citizens were murdered last year, the OVV said, citing official statistics from that country.
Crime repeatedly comes first on Venezuelans' list of worries. It has also begun to drag on Chavez's traditionally high approval ratings as well as scare tourists who come to Venezuela. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| 54 homicides per 100,000 citizens in 2009. |
In other words, Venezuela is more murderous than Baltimore and almost as bad as Baltimore and Detroit combined.
Yet another leftist utopia exposed as a hellhole. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| [q. The Norwegians and the Swedes, it's true, pay close to 50% in tax. But what is less commonly observed is that this still leaves them with an average take-home salary of $50,000. Norway can afford it, otherwise it couldn't be done. And the reason they can afford it is their economic freedom and empowerment of individual success. |
This would mean that the average gross salary is close to $100,000.
http://worldsalaries.org/sweden.shtml
The average salary for all sectors is around $1810 a month. Multiply by 12 and that gives you $21,720 for the year.
Where are you getting your figures from? |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| so...at current standing 1 bolivar=1 banana. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:39 am Post subject: |
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http://www.cnbc.com/id/37786852
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Mountains of rotting food found at a government warehouse, soaring prices and soldiers raiding wholesalers accused of hoarding: Food supply is the latest battle in President Hugo Chavez's socialist revolution.
"The battle for food is a matter of national security," said a red-shirted official from the Food Ministry, resting his arm on a pallet laden with bags of coffee.
It is also the latest issue to divide the Latin American country where Chavez has nationalized a wide swathe of the economy, he says to reverse years of exploitation of the poor.
Chavez supporters are grateful for a network of cheap state-run supermarkets and they say the raids will slow massive inflation.
Critics accuse him of steering the country toward a communist dictatorship and say he is destroying the private sector.
They point to 80,000 tons of rotting food found in warehouses belonging to the government as evidence the state is a poor and corrupt administrator.
Jose Guzman, an assistant manager at a store raided in Catia, watched with resignation as government agents pored over the company's accounts and computers after the food ministry official and the television cameras left.
"The government is pushing this type of establishment toward bankruptcy," said Guzman, who linked the raid to the rotten food scandal. "Somehow they have to replace all the food that was lost, and this is the most expeditious way."
Wasted Food
Much of the wasted food, including powdered milk and meat, was found last month in the buildup to legislative elections in September. The scandal is humiliating for Chavez, who accuses wealthy elites of fueling inflation and causing shortages of products such as meat, sugar and milk by hoarding food.
"They are not going to stop us in the plan, which is to give the people what is their right," Chavez said Friday during the inauguration of a supermarket chain the government bought this year from French retailer Casino.
Food prices are up 41 percent in the last 12 months during a deep recession, government figures show, despite the government's growing network of state-run supermarkets that sell at discounts of up to 40 percent and are popular with his poor supporters.
South America's top oil exporter, Venezuela imports about 70 percent of its food and analysts say the economic hardships could give the opposition a boost at the ballot box�although most expect Chavez to retain a reduced parliamentary majority.
Fighting back, Chavez says he is in an economic war against the "parasitic bourgeoisie" that tries to convince Venezuelans that socialism does not work by twisting facts and taking advantage of honest mistakes.
"They know where we are headed, we are going to take from the Venezuela bourgeoisie the hegemony of dominance in this country," Chavez, who calls himself a Marxist, said to applause from supporters on his TV show on Sunday.
He has also revived threats to take over the country's largest private food processor, miller and brewer, Polar.
The president rushed to give public support to Oil Minister Rafael Ramirez, who as the boss of PDVSA is also responsible for food unit PDVAL, over the case of the rotting food.
Two former PDVAL managers have been jailed in the scandal, but that has not stifled opposition charges of government incompetence.
A string of expropriations and buyouts of companies during the last couple of years means the government now controls between 20 percent and 30 percent of the distribution of staple foods.
"We are bringing order to prices," Trade Minister Richard Canan told Reuters during the Catia raid. "There are traders who are taking these products to the black market ... That is a crime and our government will continue to target these stores." |
Things are going well down there. Who could predict that currency devaluations would lead to rising prices? |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:43 am Post subject: |
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Socialism always fails.
All taxation, all involuntary government programs are socialist.
Venezuala is on the socialist path to total collapse, starvation and revolution.
The socialist system:
Government fails.
Government blames others, like businessmen, workers, foreign products, immigrants, free trade and free markets.
Government makes itself bigger and more powerful, creates new laws and programs, puts more innocent people in jail, takes more money and resources from the people, makes them poorer but tells them that they are better off, and that things will improve.
Government fails again, and repeats the cycle.
The cycle ends in reform (rarely), revolt, revolution, or in total poverty and totalitarian dictatorship like North Korea, waiting ....
Kim Jong-Chavez is creating a new family dynasty. |
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chellovek
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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Ontheway-
Come on, man. Give the ideologue thing a rest and join the rest of the human race in painful and bewildering ambiguity. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| A lot of you guys are one trick ponies. I would say that Venezuela's problem has a lot more to do with a egotistical authoritarian leader than it's economic system, which is not really socialism, but Chavez doing whatever he wants with it. As bad as Chavez is he pales in comparison to many of the right wing dictators that Latin America has had in the past. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| A lot of you guys are one trick ponies. I would say that Venezuela's problem has a lot more to do with a egotistical authoritarian leader than it's economic system, which is not really socialism, but Chavez doing whatever he wants with it. |
Do you understand that is the technical definition of socialism is when the state nationalizes industry and distribution?
Last edited by mises on Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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