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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| .38 Special wrote: |
[Once again: THERE IS NO FORCED LABOR IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Every prisoner has a right to refuse to work. Every prisoner who does work is either compensated or a volunteer.
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According to Wiki and some other sites that's not exactly true. Two states California and Oregon have a system whereby prisoners who work get time shaved of their sentences. Prisoners who refuse to work serve longer sentences and risk being sent to solitary confinement.
And Oregon is even harsher...its constitution REQUIRES prisoners to work.
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=857 |
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bassist33
Joined: 07 Jul 2009
Location: Mok-dong, Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| .38 Special wrote: |
| THERE IS NO FORCED LABOR IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. |
Thank you so much, I'm glad you could bring your own sense of reality to the table. Disagreeing with someone is one thing. Every person is entitled to his or her opinion, but that does not save them from argument when they state their opinion in a public forum. I believe that you are a very intelligent person, but I also believe that you are socially ignorant and mentally closed off. That's an opinion. Your blanket statements and generalizations demonstrate that.
I don't need a lecture on Democracy in action. Your points would have some basis if our government was anywhere near a functional democracy. Laws are not in fact based on people's opinions, but rather the will of people with the loudest voices and most money. Our country was founded on the principles that if laws are unjust, one must fight to change things. Civil disobedience is one of the greatest tools of our citizenry.
Some Thoreau for ya-
"Under a government which imprisons unjustly, the true place for a just man is also a prison.
Law never made men a whit more just; and, by means of their respect for it, even the well-disposed are daily made the agents of injustice."
Over 1.5 million people are arrested for drug related offenses each year. Nearly a million people a year are arrested for marijuana related offenses. With a national prison population of roughly three million people, that's quite a large percentage of incarcerations assuming that even a fraction of those are sentenced to jail time. When we are incarcerating our citizens at such an amazing rate, it signifies a societal issue, not merely a personal issue. I'm glad you and everyone one you ever loved or knew was able to resist the temptations of drugs and crime, but unfortunately many other people in our country have not. That includes our last three Presidents and probably a majority of the people in this country. I'll say it again, the difference between a criminal and many average citizens in our country is that the criminals got caught.
For a good deal of information, just look at the DOJ's site: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=kftp&tid=3 |
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bassist33
Joined: 07 Jul 2009
Location: Mok-dong, Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Oh, and by the way, there are many great alternatives out there to prison. I started to search to offer up some examples, but I found that there are so many ideas that it would probably behoove you to have a look for yourself rather than me posting some choice links. The problem with implementing these alternatives is not there aren't ideas as you would seem to suggest, rather it is that our prison state is simply too lucrative. Offer up some ways to make money off of alternatives to prison and you will suddenly see a revolution. Just ask T. Boone Pickens  |
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.38 Special
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
According to Wiki and some other sites that's not exactly true. Two states California and Oregon have a system whereby prisoners who work get time shaved of their sentences. Prisoners who refuse to work serve longer sentences and risk being sent to solitary confinement.
And Oregon is even harsher...its constitution REQUIRES prisoners to work.
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=857 |
Thank you, TUM, for actually providing evidence to support an argument.
I found two things interesting here: First, that it is extremely difficult to independently verify by a trusted source the state of Oregon prison workers. Second, I couldn't find any laws that require labor in California prisons.
Nearly all prisoners get time shaved from their sentences for good behavior if they are in a work program if good behavior time is available to them (except in Oregon, obviously). This is partly why prison jobs are competitive.
So I'll rephrase what I said before:
There is no forced labor in the United States (except in Oregon). All prisoners are either volunteers (except in Oregon) and are compensated (except in Oregon). 
So that's one state, a small percentage of prisoners. But I still fail to see the endemic problem in the U.S. corrections system (except in Oregon) and I still don't see where judges and police are imprisoning innocent people in order to supply prison labor cartels with cheap labor (still not even legal or acceptable in Oregon).
Oregon sure is an... exceptional place 
And Bassist33:
Possessing and trafficking narcotics is illegal. Don't do these things. The government doesn't care if you reeeaaally reeeeaaaaalllly want to. The American voting public doesn't care if you enjoy it. While I don't agree with the "3 strikes you're out" laws in some states, and I don't agree with the "zero tolerance laws" in some states, and I don't agree with the total illegallization of marijuana in all states (except where medicinally available), it is still a crime and may result in prison time.
I don't like the 1986 ban on machine guns, but you don't see me buying black-market M60s from Mexican drug cartels. You follow the law until you are able to change it. If not, you endure the consequences of your actions -- much like your hero Thoreau did with his civil disobedience. |
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.38 Special
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| bassist33 wrote: |
| Oh, and by the way, there are many great alternatives out there to prison. I started to search to offer up some examples, but I found that there are so many ideas that it would probably behoove you to have a look for yourself rather than me posting some choice links. The problem with implementing these alternatives is not there aren't ideas as you would seem to suggest, rather it is that our prison state is simply too lucrative. Offer up some ways to make money off of alternatives to prison and you will suddenly see a revolution. Just ask T. Boone Pickens |
I find it hard to believe that there is a big business conspiracy to prevent discourse on prison reform. It's not impossible, but it isn't likely, as states and the federal government lose massive amounts of revenue to prisons, relatively few prisoners are actually employed in free-market industry/services (except in Oregon), and because free-market prison labor is damaging to the American economy. Even most unions are silent about it and that is a very telling silence.
T. Boone Pickens is known for lobbying against slaughtering horses. I am not aware that he lobbies against prison reform. I implore you to educate me otherwise. |
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CapnSamwise
Joined: 11 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| .38 Special wrote: |
| But I still fail to see the endemic problem in the U.S. corrections system (except in Oregon) and I still don't see where judges and police are imprisoning innocent people in order to supply prison labor cartels with cheap labor (still not even legal or acceptable in Oregon). |
That's adorable how you've managed to narrow your argument to such a razor edge that you're able to ignore all the other issues surrounding privately owned prisons.
"As long as people outside of oregon aren't being unjustly imprisoned in order to supply cheap labor EVERYTHING IS ALRIGHT."
You are totally ignoring all the other issues surrounding people profiting from the forced internment of others but whatever! You have this adorable little world where laws work and innocent people never get punished, it must be nice. |
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.38 Special
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| CapnSamwise wrote: |
| .38 Special wrote: |
| But I still fail to see the endemic problem in the U.S. corrections system (except in Oregon) and I still don't see where judges and police are imprisoning innocent people in order to supply prison labor cartels with cheap labor (still not even legal or acceptable in Oregon). |
That's adorable how you've managed to narrow your argument to such a razor edge that you're able to ignore all the other issues surrounding privately owned prisons.
"As long as people outside of oregon aren't being unjustly imprisoned in order to supply cheap labor EVERYTHING IS ALRIGHT."
You are totally ignoring all the other issues surrounding people profiting from the forced internment of others but whatever! You have this adorable little world where laws work and innocent people never get punished, it must be nice. |
All right, fella. Let's see some proof. I'm going to need more than 45 seconds of British comedy to convince me that there is a massive secret slave trade ..... that no one else apparently knows about.
Aside from one state putting its pocket book before its ethics, what grounding in reality do you have to support your pseudo-outrage?
And thank you for the complement. Not jumping to conclusions (except about Oregon) is an intellectually adorable trait of mine  |
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CapnSamwise
Joined: 11 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| .38 Special wrote: |
All right, fella. Let's see some proof. I'm going to need more than 45 seconds of British comedy to convince me that there is a massive secret slave trade ..... that no one else apparently knows about.
Aside from one state putting its pocket book before its ethics, what grounding in reality do you have to support your pseudo-outrage?
And thank you for the complement. Not jumping to conclusions (except about Oregon) is an intellectually adorable trait of mine |
You keep going on about this whole slave trade issue, that's really not what I have been talking about. But it's okay! I also don't have any outrage, so I don't know what you're talking about. Probably you are just projecting on me, but that would be jumping to conclusions and we all know you don't do that.
But it's okay! Really it is. The world needs weirdos like you who don't mind giving up security for liberty. I mean, can you imagine how boring the American Revolution would have been if not for Loyalists for Mel Gibson to murder? That totally would have sucked.
tl;dr stop posting |
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.38 Special
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| CapnSamwise wrote: |
| .38 Special wrote: |
All right, fella. Let's see some proof. I'm going to need more than 45 seconds of British comedy to convince me that there is a massive secret slave trade ..... that no one else apparently knows about.
Aside from one state putting its pocket book before its ethics, what grounding in reality do you have to support your pseudo-outrage?
And thank you for the complement. Not jumping to conclusions (except about Oregon) is an intellectually adorable trait of mine |
You keep going on about this whole slave trade issue, that's really not what I have been talking about. But it's okay! I also don't have any outrage, so I don't know what you're talking about. Probably you are just projecting on me, but that would be jumping to conclusions and we all know you don't do that.
But it's okay! Really it is. The world needs weirdos like you who don't mind giving up security for liberty. I mean, can you imagine how boring the American Revolution would have been if not for Loyalists for Mel Gibson to murder? That totally would have sucked.
tl;dr stop posting |
You have yet to contribute anything to this thread, which is about neo-slavery in prisons, other than to express contempt for my position.
Why waste our time? |
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CapnSamwise
Joined: 11 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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"Our" time? How cute, are you going to start using the royal We next! My gosh that's adorable, do you sit on this thread hammering F5 too? I bet you do.
Anyway, it's because you're a silly little man with silly little political beliefs.
Now talk to me about the gold standard. I bet you think that it's terrible that the dollar was taken off the standard, and that investing in gold is a solid strategy in case the money market collapses, right?
I bet you do! |
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travel zen
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Location: Good old Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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Did you know that the paper clips that you use probably come from womens prisons in China ? Its also a big problem (but not for the Chinese Governement).
"Slave prisons' are the wave of the future, even though thousands of years old in idea. I read a short story "How the whip came back" that is frighteningly accurate of its portrayal of slavery being economical and therefore necessary for the economy again.
It's coming back in modern form. It's already in most countries. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| .38 Special wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
According to Wiki and some other sites that's not exactly true. Two states California and Oregon have a system whereby prisoners who work get time shaved of their sentences. Prisoners who refuse to work serve longer sentences and risk being sent to solitary confinement.
And Oregon is even harsher...its constitution REQUIRES prisoners to work.
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=857 |
Thank you, TUM, for actually providing evidence to support an argument.
I found two things interesting here: First, that it is extremely difficult to independently verify by a trusted source the state of Oregon prison workers. Second, I couldn't find any laws that require labor in California prisons.
. |
According to this link, prisoners in California are required to work or lose their benefits (parole/early release). I'd say that qualifies as forced labor.
http://www.voltairenet.org/article30225.html
Scroll down to the tenth paragraph.
According to another link (which it won't let me post) 37 states require prisoners to work and if they "refuse, they are locked up in isolation cells"
Again I'd say that qualifies. Sure probably most do volunteer in order to get privileges...but there is no real choice. |
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CapnSamwise
Joined: 11 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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welll then maybe they shouldnt have done the crime! If they cant do the time ISN'T THAT RIGHT HMMM?
it is just like my grandpappy used to say! oh if only all the worlds matters could be divided into start black and white with no contrast or room for moral ambiguity, solved quickly with homespun wisdom. i blame the liberals for making it not be this nostalgic re-imagining of the 1950s anymore. |
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bassist33
Joined: 07 Jul 2009
Location: Mok-dong, Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| .38 Special wrote: |
| bassist33 wrote: |
| Oh, and by the way, there are many great alternatives out there to prison. I started to search to offer up some examples, but I found that there are so many ideas that it would probably behoove you to have a look for yourself rather than me posting some choice links. The problem with implementing these alternatives is not there aren't ideas as you would seem to suggest, rather it is that our prison state is simply too lucrative. Offer up some ways to make money off of alternatives to prison and you will suddenly see a revolution. Just ask T. Boone Pickens |
I find it hard to believe that there is a big business conspiracy to prevent discourse on prison reform. It's not impossible, but it isn't likely, as states and the federal government lose massive amounts of revenue to prisons, relatively few prisoners are actually employed in free-market industry/services (except in Oregon), and because free-market prison labor is damaging to the American economy. Even most unions are silent about it and that is a very telling silence.
T. Boone Pickens is known for lobbying against slaughtering horses. I am not aware that he lobbies against prison reform. I implore you to educate me otherwise. |
Actually, T. Boone Pickens is known for lobbying for clean energy once he realized there was a lot of money in it. Before that, he was an oilman. He came out in 2008 with the Picken's Plan which pushes for investments in alternative energy. He argues for the importance of energy independence, but his interest is mostly economical. He fought for it once he saw a profit was to be had. Is that enough education?
You say that states and the government lose money with prisons. That explains nothing. This is about corporations, and you are completely delusional in your understanding of the power of lobbyists.
You thanked Tum for providing some proof, but you've not offered up anything of substance. Every point you've made in this thread has been opinion. I haven't been arguing the slave issue here with you this entire time. I have been replying to your stance on criminals essentially being second class citizens, but if you want to discuss that, why shouldn't prisoners at least be paid at minimum wage? The wages they earn in prisons are next to nothing. Companies are profiting off of this. That is why the private prison system is growing. All 53 prisons in Florida are operated for profit. That's just one state. You stated somewhere here that private prisons are a small percentage of the overall prison system. You're OPINION was wrong.
It's funny that you bring up machine guns because the number of people arrested for possessing them is no where close to the number of people arrested for marijuana possession. We are not creating a prison state due to the ban on assault rifles. We may be pissing off some enthusiasts. That is the difference between the two.
FYI I don't smoke marijuana, nor am I an advocate for its use. I am a citizen of the United States that sees our country imprisoning hundreds of thousands of people for using a drug that has been proven to have no harmful effects on the human body. We are legislating personal activities that have no potential effect on the user or others. This is where we go beyond preserving justice into a prison state. |
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