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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| Arthur Dent wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Arthur, thanks for the comment. How have things changed in Montreal since then? Have Anglo Canadians been returning? |
Ironically in this case, I haven't been back there for 20 years. 
My family left there one by two.
Many of my friends also left, but some are still there. |
I left in 2000, and I visited in 2004. That was the last time. I did find there was too much separatist propaganda that made anglophones uncomfortable from 1995-2000. However, Lucien Bouchard saw that the economist, Parizeau, ignored the fact that there were huge budgetary and debt problems, and Bouchard made cuts and tried to encourage investment. He backtracked from calling a referendum. I believe it was because he felt it wasn't economically feasible at that time.
An appreciable percentage of French Quebecois, "les pures laines",
began losing their enthusiasm for the Parti Quebecois and Liberals and ADQ members made inroads in certain areas. The vote for the ADQ was a protest vote, maybe, though people were hoping the ADQ would do something to deserve the votes they got; they didn't and were hit hard, but the PQ has not recovered politically.
The Bloc Quebecois still has a lot of representation and is a formidable group. Yet, the Tories did make gains. Let's say the Bloc Quebecois lost a little ground, but not a lot of ground. Quebecois want to keep the Bloc Quebecois to protect French Quebecois autonomy, I am guessing. A vote for the Bloc Quebecois isn't necessarily a vote against Canada based on the polls in Quebec regarding Canada and separation.
The fact that the Bloc Quebecois hasn't lost a lot of ground (it was still significant), just some ground, doesn't mean they have the same exact ideological support that they would want. We can't dismiss the Bloc's strength, but they can't dismiss their significant enough losses.
Many in Quebec, as a poster said, don't want to risk too much by separating. Canada would lose out and so would Quebec. Canada is a great country and does its best to have a good relationship with all provinces and various parties show respect towards French Canadian culture as its part of the heritage. We should and can keep on working this out. |
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Paddycakes
Joined: 05 May 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| Canada would lose out and so would Quebec. Canada is a great country and does its best to have a good relationship with all provinces and various parties show respect towards French Canadian culture as its part of the heritage. |
Sounds like somebody's been taking those historical vignette clips literally, tabernac.
I think it was Lenin who said that "when one nation oppresses another, then it itself cannot be free..." |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| Paddycakes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Canada would lose out and so would Quebec. Canada is a great country and does its best to have a good relationship with all provinces and various parties show respect towards French Canadian culture as its part of the heritage. |
Sounds like somebody's been taking those historical vignette clips literally, tabernac.
I think it was Lenin who said that "when one nation oppresses another, then it itself cannot be free..." |
When you quote Lenin, do you mean to suggest that Canada is oppressing Quebec to some degree? And if so, to what degree? |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| When you quote Lenin, do you mean to suggest that Canada is oppressing Quebec to some degree? And if so, to what degree? |
I can probably sum up the Marxist analysis as follows: In mid-20th Century Quebec, the French largely functioned as the proletariat, either working for the anglo elite in American-owned enterprises, or toiling away in the agrarian countryside. A parochial ideology, combining elements of nationalism and clericalism(Vichy would be an adequate reference point here) was employed to keep the French beholden to their colonial masters. Some sort of working-class uprising was neccessary to throw of these shackles off neo-colonialism.
Suffice to say that this is a somewhat dated analysis, since French Quebeckers are probably not as "proletariatized" or "ruralized" as they used to be, and clericalism has all but vanished from the political landscape. The Parti Quebecois, an indepenence-minded outfit which has run Quebec on and off for the past 35 years, WAS fairly pro-labour and moderately socialist in its early days, but now seems to have descended into a more parochial form of immigrant-baiting nationalism, somewhat along the lines of Pim Fortuyn.
If you want an original Marxist source, I recommend the book The White Niggers Of North America, written in 1968. It's an incindiery polemic, by a guy who was a member of the FLQ(basically a bunch of Black Panther wannabes in Quebec). Whether you accept the writer's conclusions or not, it'll give you a good idea of the New Left analysis of Quebec-Canada relations.
More recent, and less Marxist, but no less polemical, is The Black Book Of English Canada, by Norman Lester. It was written partly as a response to the federally sponsored "historical vignettes" that Paddycakes references in his post. The focus in this book is more cultural than economic, and the basic gist of it seems to be "Anglos like to talk about how we're all a bunch of reactionary fascists over here, but they're just as bad if not worse, and anyway Quebec fascism was promoted by the anglos themselves to keep the French down".
link
link |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, and here is a translation of the FLQ manifesto, from 1970. It was read out on the radio as demanded by the FLQ, after they had kidnapped a couple of bigwigs in their one moment of pseudo-glory.
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We, and more and more Quebeckers too, have had it with a government of *beep*-footers who perform a hundred and one tricks to charm the American millionaires, begging them to come and invest in Quebec, the Beautiful Province, where thousands of square miles of forests full of game and of lakes full of fish are the exclusive property of these all-powerful lords of the twentieth century. We are sick of a government in the hands of a hypocrite like Bourassa who depends on Brinks armoured trucks, an authentic symbol of the foreign occupation of Quebec, to keep the poor Quebec "natives" fearful of that poverty and unemployment to which we are so accustomed.
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Excellent summary OTOH. |
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goreality
Joined: 09 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Block Quebecois is simply a lobbyist party. Mordecai Richler had them all sorted out years ago back when the FLQ was at its peak. I don't remember exactly, but it was either Bush or Clinton who said 'we enjoy having ONE neighbor to the north.' |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| goreality wrote: |
| Block Quebecois is simply a lobbyist party. Mordecai Richler had them all sorted out years ago back when the FLQ was at its peak. |
Richeler had the Bloc Quebecois sorted out "back when the FLQ was at its peak"? The FLQ pretty much ceased to exist after about 1970, but the BQ wasn't even founded until 1991. |
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Paddycakes
Joined: 05 May 2003
Location: Seoul
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goreality
Joined: 09 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| Wasn't talking about the block specifically...'them all' would normally imply that. Am talking about separatiste groups aimed at dismantling the federation. Specifically those who celebrate their national day the week before the rest of the country. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| goreality wrote: |
| Wasn't talking about the block specifically...'them all' would normally imply that. Am talking about separatiste groups aimed at dismantling the federation. Specifically those who celebrate their national day the week before the rest of the country. |
Sorry, I thought you were saying "all sorted out" as opposed to "them all". And I agree, the sovereigntist movement these days has been reduced to essentially a regional grievance lobby, not entirely dissimilar to the western-alienation Alberta First crowd. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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French Quebecois were certainly discriminated against in the 1950s. The anglo-community in Montreal controlled Montreal the late 60s even. The power of the anglo-community was challenged with bills like Law 101, La Loi 101. The Canadian Government since the 1960s has gone out of its way to promote developent in Quebec, and it has given a lot of aid to Quebec, and, in addition to that, it promoted bilingualism. We also have the idea that Quebec is a distinct society, and it has control over its own immigration policy. It is far from oppressed when compared to many decades ago.
The Bloc Quebecois essentially emerged at around the same time Reform emerged in Alberta. We had Lucien Bouchard of the Conservative Party who broke away from the party and helped form the Bloc Quebecois. The Bloc Quebecois is tied to the Parti Quebecois, which has had some election losses, but remains a formidable force, but not strong enough to call referendums. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:51 am Post subject: |
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/quebec-independence-by-no-means-settled-duceppe-tells-americans/article1758500/?cmpid
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Quebec independence �by no means settled,� Duceppe tells Americans
In a speech to a U.S. audience, Bloc Qu�b�cois Leader Gilles Duceppe insists that Quebec sovereignty remains in the cards and says it would be a win-win for everyone in North America � except for those who still believe in the �Canadian dream.�
Mr. Duceppe said the Liberal government in Quebec can be expected to lose the next election at the hands of the Parti Qu�b�cois and he predicted the Bloc will continue to dominate the federal landscape in Quebec.
�I am here to tell you that the question of Quebec�s political future is by no means settled,� he told the Woodrow Wilson Centre and Hudson Institute as part of a two-day visit to Washington.
�A sovereign Quebec will be a win-win outcome for Quebeckers, Canada, the United States and the world � for everyone except those who are nostalgic for a Canadian dream that no longer exists in reality.�
The Bloc Leader is urging the American government to stay out of Quebec�s internal politics but to move quickly to recognize an independent Quebec in the event that a third referendum on sovereignty succeeds.
�What we hope to see from the United States government is, first and foremost, no interference in our domestic affairs when Quebeckers make their decision,� Mr. Duceppe said, without mentioning specifically former U.S. president Bill Clinton's clear statements in favour of the federalist option in the 1990s.
�Secondly, I am counting on the United States to be a decisive player in the event that the �Yes� side wins a referendum, and to push for negotiations and a quick and orderly resolution between Canada and Quebec,� Mr. Duceppe said.
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I've not seen references to a third referendum for a while. I believe the Canuck economy is entering 2-3 years of hell right about now. With a weak Liberal Party in QC the PQ might just get their vote. |
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