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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| I've talked to many Korean friends and students about this... and a good portion of them seemed pretty keen about it. They were interested as the saga unfolded, they have opinions on who to blame, but are at a loss for what to do now. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| To be honest, I don't find it particularly perplexing. In my experience, Koreans aren't actually emotional, out of control people, they're just very group minded and very easy to rile up using those group sympathies. |
I wouldn't say Koreans as a group are emotional or out-of-control either, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't have some reaction to this incident. Their country has been attacked by a foreign nation; that warrants a response. So far the only response I've seen has been family members of the slain sailors yelling at the 2MB administration for not releasing an offical statement about what happened.
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| Mine usually tries to defend Korea, but quickly ends up at a loss and admits that I'm right, followed by sporatic complaints over the following hour or so that, "You say too well, it not fair." |
Somehow I end up with women, both Korean and American, that explicitly refuse ("I don't care if it's logical!") to engage in reasoned discussion about anything they feel strongly about. I was beginning to think it was the philsophy student's curse, but you said that was your field of study, too, right?
| jvalmer wrote: |
| That's where you went wrong. The issue of NK and SK being two separate countries is a very emotional one. To many Koreans, especially the older they are, a unified Korea in the future is a must. |
That hasn't been my experience with Koreans. The overwhelming majority of the Koreans I've had similar discussions with have the opinion that the North is a lost cousin unable to rejoin the greater Korean society. The North is a separate country with a separate culture and only the most basic family resemblance. Granted, most of the Koreans I have these discussions with are under the age of 40, so the elder may indeed have stronger feelings about the North. |
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Moldy Rutabaga
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea
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| Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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I think one of the most telling things on this is to read a newspaper or watch TV news when they have a weather report. Inevitably it is a map of the two Koreas, with nothing else beyond a few perfunctory cities listed in text (30 degrees in Johannesburg!).
People are certainly realistic that reunification will be difficult and costly, but try telling a Korean that North Korea will remain a separate country forever, or will become China when Chinese historians "discover" it was always part of their country! |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
How can I avoid the conclusion that it's a xenophobic double standard?
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Perhaps applying some intelligence and logic would help?
North Korea=enemy
USA=ally.
One expects different behavior from an ally than from an enemy. This kind of behavior is expected from North Korea. They've invaded, dug tunnels to start more invasions, put soldiers on South Korean shores to kill the president, developed an atomic bomb, engaged in some naval skirmishes and threaten war every other month or whenever they feel neglected by the outside world. In other words they've been engaging in brinkmanship with the South for more than 50 years...
What is a protest going to do?
But from a foreign power that's ostensibly here to protect the population...and then kills two of them (accident or not)...well you are going to have people asking questions. And when certain agent provocateurs spread rumors that this was a DELIBERATE act...you are going to get protests. And the South has more latitude in dealing with a foreign power than with the North. The North isn't going anywhere soon.
And an ally is invariably held to higher and different standards of behavior than an enemy. It's been that way since time began.
If you have an enemy and a friend and you give them each a knife...which one are you going to be more enraged at if they stab you in the back? |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| That's where you went wrong. The issue of NK and SK being two separate countries is a very emotional one. To many Koreans, especially the older they are, a unified Korea in the future is a must. |
That hasn't been my experience with Koreans. The overwhelming majority of the Koreans I've had similar discussions with have the opinion that the North is a lost cousin unable to rejoin the greater Korean society. The North is a separate country with a separate culture and only the most basic family resemblance. Granted, most of the Koreans I have these discussions with are under the age of 40, so the elder may indeed have stronger feelings about the North. |
That's because unification would drastically effect their current standard of living. In their hearts every Korean wants unification, as long as their TV's and cars aren't taken away.
These lost cousins aren't in some far off country overseas, they are next door. For the last 1000+ years they have shared the same language and culture. The bonds are too strong, they will be united, eventually. |
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Moldy Rutabaga
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 12:00 am Post subject: |
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[edit]
Last edited by Moldy Rutabaga on Wed Jan 01, 2014 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| I can understand it. People are terrified of a war and would rather do anything than talk about it. |
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Poni
Joined: 23 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 2:44 am Post subject: |
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| I am in Gunsan SK, wondering if this news about SK standing up to NK is alarming to anyone else. Wondering if people have an emergency plan to get out if anything happens...y'know just incase...not that I am freaking out yet, it all depends on the North's response. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 5:10 am Post subject: |
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U.S. Grant in one of his first actions of the Civil War was preparing to attack those people and was anxious about it. He launched his attack only to discover empty trenches as those people had abandoned their position. He realized a great truth: "The enemy was as scared of me as I was of him."
We should remember this when dealing with North Korea.
That and also that our cause is just and our quarrel is honorable. With that in mind what do we have to fear? What place would we rather be?
Being intimidated and running from that man strikes me as distasteful. Though, death also strikes me as distasteful and the continued good life is certainly appetizing.
At the same time hopefully things stay peaceful, war sucks.
When the dust settles with the inevitable defeat of the Norks, the North Koreans are going to need help in rebuilding their country. Hopefully some of us would take that opportunity and do some real work in the world. This is especially true for those of us who may have some religious or humanitarian background/interests. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Perhaps applying some intelligence and logic would help? |
It is a condescending statement. And lacking a certain common sense itself.
If my friend shows up late for dinner, that's worse than someone who is a stranger running me over? I understand the premise that we hold our allies and enemies to different moral standards, but we can still be alarmed or concerned about the action itself, whatever our expectations were. Perhaps I predicted that the Nazis would invade my country with tanks, and they're already my enemies, but I'm not going to be blase about it when they actually do it.
I may be overdramatic. And I'm not Korean so I can only make rather surface conclusions. But to me the idea of expectations and alliances isn't sufficient to explain the fact that the country exploded into rage over an accident caused by a country that bled thousands of lives to save it-- and behaves rather flippantly over a country that deliberately carried out an act of war and which has nuclear weapons pointed at it. To me, lacking a better explanation, the idea that xenophobia is the primary reason works. |
I never said anything like your friend showing up late for dinner is worse than a stranger running you over. Again you are attempting to compare apples with oranges.
If you are led to believe that your ally (who you are placing faith in to defend you) deliberately murdered two of your civilians...you'd be shocked and then enraged. Remember there's not just been this one incident...there's been a decades long friction with plenty of cases of GI's behaving badly which came to a boil with the schoolgirls' death. And it wasn't the whole country taking place in those protests anyway.
And I would disagree that President Lee's response is flippant.
They simply took the time to decide what their response would be...what did you expect...a declaration of all out war? |
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AsiaESLbound
Joined: 07 Jan 2010
Location: Truck Stop Missouri
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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Koreans now have a consensus that everything will be OK now that America formally announced they will support South Korea with whatever it decides to do about the situation. This means the Americans are readying for war on the peninsula. President Obama formally announced the US military is readying up. Koreans commonly think the war will NOT be South of the DMZ. They seem to no nothing about chemical and biological warfare weapons nor anything about artillery and missiles aimed their way. They are only thinking about the risk of ground troops possibly breaching the DMZ to invade.
I spoke with my co-teacher about it today who's boyfriend is in the ROK Army and she said during the past 3 days, they are readying their positions near the DMZ just as the North are doing so. Both armies are facing off right now on the brink of war, but you won't read that in the news, yet. Also, because China supports the North, the 2 Korea's inadvertently could pit American and China into conflict. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| AsiaESLbound wrote: |
Koreans now have a consensus that everything will be OK now that America formally announced they will support South Korea with whatever it decides to do about the situation. This means the Americans are readying for war on the peninsula. President Obama formally announced the US military is readying up. Koreans commonly think the war will NOT be South of the DMZ. They seem to no nothing about chemical and biological warfare weapons nor anything about artillery and missiles aimed their way. They are only thinking about the risk of ground troops possibly breaching the DMZ to invade.
I spoke with my co-teacher about it today who's boyfriend is in the ROK Army and she said during the past 3 days, they are readying their positions near the DMZ just as the North are doing so. Both armies are facing off right now on the brink of war, but you won't read that in the news, yet. Also, because China supports the North, the 2 Korea's inadvertently could pit American and China into conflict. |
I feel like if China has to choose between continued economic business with America, and support for North Korea, the rational choice is obvious. If we were talking about an area of land that the Chinese felt was part of their dominion perhaps pride would win out over pragmatism, but surely when it comes to North Korea, when the chips are on the table they'll make the correct choice with regards to their own economic interests? |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| AsiaESLbound wrote: |
Koreans now have a consensus that everything will be OK now that America formally announced they will support South Korea with whatever it decides to do about the situation. This means the Americans are readying for war on the peninsula. President Obama formally announced the US military is readying up. Koreans commonly think the war will NOT be South of the DMZ. They seem to no nothing about chemical and biological warfare weapons nor anything about artillery and missiles aimed their way. They are only thinking about the risk of ground troops possibly breaching the DMZ to invade.
I spoke with my co-teacher about it today who's boyfriend is in the ROK Army and she said during the past 3 days, they are readying their positions near the DMZ just as the North are doing so. Both armies are facing off right now on the brink of war, but you won't read that in the news, yet. Also, because China supports the North, the 2 Korea's inadvertently could pit American and China into conflict. |
I feel like if China has to choose between continued economic business with America, and support for North Korea, the rational choice is obvious. If we were talking about an area of land that the Chinese felt was part of their dominion perhaps pride would win out over pragmatism, but surely when it comes to North Korea, when the chips are on the table they'll make the correct choice with regards to their own economic interests? |
China doesn't want a stong, US allied country on their border. They would see it as a threat to their own national security. North Korea serves as a buffer against US influence. When push comes to shove, a likely scenario is China allowing the collapse of North Korea, but moving to take the northern most regions for themselves. They'd give up 80% of North Korea but they would take the regions closest to their border.
I seriosuly doubt that the US, Korea, and their allies are going to start World War 3 just for that small stretch of land bordering China. Korea would be unified, China would have their "special zone" on their border to buffer against Korea/US influence, and you'd have another border between 2 countries that is heavily armed and foritfied. China is sure as a hell not going to sit by and let the US build a big ol Military Base on North Korean land without their own show of force. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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When push comes to shove, a likely scenario is China allowing the collapse of North Korea, but moving to take the northern most regions for themselves. They'd give up 80% of North Korea but they would take the regions closest to their border.
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The Northeast Project |
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shinramyun
Joined: 31 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Ugh, Truman should have listened to Macarthur and nuked those chinese into oblivion when they had a chance... no more norks and chinese to worry about in future if that happened. Only russians. |
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