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King Tut's DNA is Western European
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Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:46 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Leon wrote:

Is it more dignified to ignore the way that blacks are portrayed in the popular culture?

That's unrelated to this discussion; who to cast as the role of Cleopatra has nothing to do with how blacks are portrayed in popular culture.

Leon wrote:

To stay quiet about lack of role models?

If she feels there is a genuine lack of role models, the dignified answer is to become one herself. Real role models aren't people cast in Hollywood Movies. They are people who interact with the world around them and leave it better than they found it. This woman is reinforcing the problem of lack of good role models, not working to address it.

Leon wrote:

If thats dignity than I have no use for it.

Others no doubt feel the same way, which is why we'll keep hearing these people whine about castings in trivial movies instead of becoming good role models themselves, contributing something of genuine value to the world to give younger generations something to look up to.

I think one other thing is worth mentioning. The author of the article in question insisted that an African American woman should play Cleopatra because she was an "African Queen". In doing this, she does exactly what many white people do with regards to Africa: treats it like a monolithic entity, when in reality it's a huge, quite diverse place. Africans aren't some single group of people; just as with Europeans, or Asians, or so forth, they fall into a wide range (and Southern Europe and Northern Africa have historically had a fair amount of overlap in that regard). If she could get her head around this fact, perhaps she'd recognize that Ancient Egyptians -- particularly their nobility from certain periods -- almost assuredly had very little in common with the peoples African Americans descend from, and understand why both Egyptologists and people who make media casting decisions are completely comfortable casting someone of European descent as Cleopatra. Incidentally being from the same continent is meaningless. She should have more respect for African diversity than that, but like many biased individuals, she is emotionally compelled to think of Egypt as an "African Empire", which of course in her mind necessitates it being populated by people she imagines as "African".

I agree with most of what you said, especially the last paragraph. The part about people in movies not being role models I do disagree with. When you were a kid who did you look up to? I know that I looked up to some movie stars and musicians, and I know that many kids still do. Black children do not have many worthwhile role models in pop. culture other than a few will smiths and halle berries. It is an underlaying systemic problem. I think calling attention to the problem in general is a good thing. Not trying to derail the thread, I think Jolie will make a sexy Cleopatra.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:00 pm Post subject:

Leon wrote:

When you were a kid who did you look up to?

When I was young, I was impressed with Isaac Asimov. Isaac Asimov was a man of ideas. People in movies have always been, to me, simply people in movies. I feel our society would be better off if more children were encouraged to feel that way.

Children look up to movie stars, musicians, and athletes when they have no one actually worth looking up to, and parents need to do a better job exposing their children to role models of real value, who can help them figure out who they want to be, rather than what they want to be. African Americans (and honestly, all American children) need more such people, but Hollywood is rarely capable of providing it, and would be best not relied upon.

Parents would do well to buy their children Kindles instead of TVs.

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:13 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Leon wrote:

When you were a kid who did you look up to?

What kids do you know? It's nice you like science fiction books, but to dismiss movies as not having ideas is absurd. It's an equally valid art form, and one that is going to reach more children.

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:54 pm Post subject:

Junior wrote:

Adventurer wrote:

you have had many blond Berbers in Morocco and Algeria from a long, long time ago.

Are they descended from European slaves captured by barbary pirates?

Quote:

From the 16th to 19th century, pirates captured an estimated 800,000 to 1.25 million Europeans as slaves,[2] mainly from seaside villages in Italy, Spain, and Portugal, but also from France, Britain, the Netherlands, Ireland and as far away as Iceland.
...to sell at slave markets in places such as Algeria and Morocco.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_corsairs

No, there were people with light hair and skin in North Africa centuries before that. I remember reading about that. The Roman mosaics should there were light skinned Berbers. North Africa (I am referring to the non-Egyptian areas). As far as other European blood, the kidnapping could play somewhat of a role, but many Berbers are light anyway, and also the Andalucian Arabs would have some Spanish ancestry in some cases. Some would be descendants of Christians who became Muslims and then had to flee Spain.

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:57 pm Post subject:

Leon wrote:

It's nice you like science fiction books, but to dismiss movies as not having ideas is absurd.

I don't dismiss movies as not having ideas. I do criticize the overwhelming majority of modern movies for distracting from those ideas with glitz, glamour, and special effects, while simultaneously failing to provide an examination of the ideas in question anywhere near as deeply or effectively as a book generally does. A book and a movie can express the same ideas, but a book does so in a fashion that is in every way superior due to the nature of its format.

Leon wrote:

It's an equally valid art form, and one that is going to reach more children.

It's a potentially equally valid art form that simply hasn't succeeded at providing valuable role models for the average child despite immense exposure.

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:03 pm Post subject:

mises wrote:

Here's the context for this thread:

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/movies/2010/06/19/2010-06-19_angelina_jolie_draws_criticism_for_being_too_white_to_play_cleopatra_in_upcoming.html

Quote:

Angelina Jolie draws criticism for being 'too white' to play Cleopatra in upcoming Scott Rudin film

...

But some members of the African American community beg to differ -- they are outraged by the casting decision and say Jolie is "too white" to play the Egyptian Queen.

"I don't care how full Angelina Jolie's lips are, how many African children she adopts, or how bronzed her skin will become for the film," Shirea Carroll wrote in an editorial for Essence.com.

"I firmly believe this role should have gone to a Black woman...What's next? A biopic on Sojourner Truth played by Betty White?"

I assume this is why Cordova created this thread.

I mean no disrespect in saying that many Americans are horribly ignorant about history and other ethnicities and races, and this is probably more true of African Americans who were disproportionately less educated. I am not saying that, again, to insult anyone.

Cleopatra is a Greek name. Patra comes from Patera in Greek, which means father. From what African language does the word Patera come from?
Cleo means pride. There is an assumption that since Cleopatra was from Egypt she was black. She was Greek. There were many Greeks in Egypt
just as there were Greeks from Syria and Palestine for example in Sephoris near modern Nazareth.

I would say a Mediterranean looking female should be more than suitable to play Cleopatra. Angelina Jolie could pass for that. Macedonians are not really dark people. They are not black people.

Many African Americans are also affected by old notions of racism and the one drop rule. However, that's not how the world works. In Egypt, if someone has some black blood somewhere in a distant way, but looks more Caucasian than the person is viewed as Caucasian. They don't view themselves as such on purpose to insult African Americans. Now, Nubian kings were definitely black. I can understand being upset at portraying
a Nubian as Caucasian.

This has to do with ignorance. A large part of Asia is inhabited by Caucasians and so is Africa. This has been the case for thousands of years.

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:06 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Leon wrote:

It's nice you like science fiction books, but to dismiss movies as not having ideas is absurd.

Leon wrote:

It's an equally valid art form, and one that is going to reach more children.

It's a potentially equally valid art form that simply hasn't succeeded at providing valuable role models for the average child despite immense exposure.

Have you read many modern books aimed towards children? I submit they have similar problems, such as the twilight books and others like them. Sometimes a movie can present ideas in a superior way to a book due to its visual component and visual imagery. I think there are many valuable role models from films for children, but not as many for black children.

I don't mind people realizing that Africa, especially northern Africa, was and is ethnically diverse, but what makes me cringe is the way that people discuss it. Especially the way the information was introduced by the OP.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:23 pm Post subject:

Leon wrote:

Have you read many modern books aimed towards children? I submit they have similar problems ...

I concur; the obvious answer is to circumvent children's books and simply give them higher level material to read. It will improve their reading skills, their vocabulary, and their grasp of the language while simultaneously opening them to new, fully-explored ideas. I wonder at the notion of a child genuinely being shown a series of adult-focused, idea-inspired films and coming to respect the man behind those ideas.

Leon wrote:

Sometimes a movie can present ideas in a superior way to a book due to its visual component and visual imagery.

I can accept the notion that, at times, a well-acted, well-written movie can inspire emotion in a superior way (seeing a person seemingly in a realistically emotional situation touches our empathy more effectively than simply reading about it), but as far as actually exploring ideas in a superior way, I don't think so. At best, it can give access with less effort on behalf of the viewer, but I don't think that's a particular virtue.

Leon wrote:

I think there are many valuable role models from films for children, but not as many for black children.

I don't, and more importantly, I think children are far more likely in the long-term to idolize the actor than the character, which is a problem given the fact that actors simply aren't particularly worthy of emulation. Animation can circumvent this to an extent, but I consider animation and live-acted movies to be separate mediums of expression anyway.

Senior

Joined: 31 Jan 2010

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:45 pm Post subject:

Leon wrote:

Black children do not have many worthwhile role models in pop. culture other than a few will smiths and halle berries. It is an underlaying systemic problem. I think calling attention to the problem in general is a good thing.

There are probably thousands of entertainers that black children can look up to.

Forest Whitaker, Morgan Freeman, Jada Pinkett, Queen Latifah, Andre Benjamin, Common, Oprah, Samuel L Jackson, Jamie Foxx. In fact blacks are probably over represented in pop culture. Where are all the Asians!

Which is all beside the point because it isn't the person who people hold up as role models responsibility to act in a "worthwhile" manner. It's the responsibility of people to choose "worthwhile" role models. If someone you admire acts poorly, you should learn from it, instead of emulating them.

Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:01 am Post subject:

Still fairly unresolved is the origins of the lost city of Great Zimbabwe in southern africa, dating from 1270, in which syrian, chinese and arabian artifacts have been found. But who built it? Evidence partly points to local african tribes, and also the Lemba, descended from ancient jews and Arabs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Zimbabwe

caniff

Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:19 am Post subject:

Fox wrote:

It's a potentially equally valid art form that simply hasn't succeeded at providing valuable role models for the average child despite immense exposure.

I don't know about 'valuable', but I'm pretty sure our poster RJ Junior has been strongly influenced by Ron Jeremy.

SNOTOSEOUL

Joined: 12 Apr 2010

Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:11 pm Post subject:

Perhaps the plot thickens....maybe their is a reason western europeans who control the USA are the same group who controlled Egypt???? Obelisks and pyramids are used as monuments and figures on money in the US. Do you know about th "I" word.....

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:13 am Post subject:

SNOTOSEOUL wrote:

Perhaps the plot thickens....maybe their is a reason western europeans who control the USA are the same group who controlled Egypt???? Obelisks and pyramids are used as monuments and figures on money in the US. Do you know about th "I" word.....

The United States is not simply controlled by Western Europeans, but an Eastern European, Mediterranean mixture that has mixed with the Western Europeans. Jews are not generally Western European, and they play a major role in the economy. Mediterranean Arabs play a smaller role since they are a recent group.

Also, Celts technically came from Central Europe before going to places like Ireland, Scotland, France, and no one is sure where the Celts who lived in Galatia, Turkey came from.

We don't know the original homeland of the Celts, but they came at some point from Central Europe.

As far as those who used to dabble into race, they said that the Egyptians were mostly Mediterranean Caucasian. That also applies to the Semites like the Jews who are not Western European except to some extent the German and French Jews.

I have heard of the Lemba that junior mentioned having some Semitic ancestry somewhere. It is without a doubt that Ethiopian Christians and Jews have Caucasian ancestry via the Semites, but many African Americans who try to play with history propose something absurd like people just became lighter skinned from Ethiopia on to the Middle East instead of the idea that blacks and Semites mixed to form the Amharic people.

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