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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| When I think of these wars, I start to feel a bit hysterical. |
I agree with Fox. |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| I disagree. I say roll the heavy armor in, slaughter all mercenaries, and take full autonomous control of the country until every poppy growing bomb maker is either dead, imprisoned, or humbly serving the new government. You have to admit that as intolerant and imperialistic as that sounds, it's the only way to take over a country successfully. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:45 am Post subject: |
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For me, it's always been about 'why are we there?'
I seem to recall going in to get Bin Laden because of 9/11.
Mission: Failure
Then it morphed into state building.
Mission: Failure
Then it because containing extremism in Pakistan.
Mission: ??? |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
For me, it's always been about 'why are we there?'
I seem to recall going in to get Bin Laden because of 9/11.
Mission: Failure
Then it morphed into state building.
Mission: Failure
Then it because containing extremism in Pakistan.
Mission: ??? |
The Taliban was able to come into power in the first place due to the fact that after the Soviet invasion, Afghanistan was in ruins.
Yes, we should get Osama Bin Laden, but nothing will be gained unless Afghanistan is rebuilt into a functioning society. Otherwise, another extreme group sympathetic to Al-Qaida, will come into power.
With regards to Pakistan, we never shifted our efforts from Afghanistan to Pakistan. That would have been ridiculous. Instead, in order for the effort in Afghanistan to succeed, we need Pakistan's government on our side. Otherwise, the Taliban will continue taking advantage of the borderlands and as a by-product start moving further into Pakistan. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
The Taliban was able to come into power in the first place due to the fact that after the Soviet invasion, Afghanistan was in ruins. |
That, and the factthat they were assisted by the CIA.
| Quote: |
| Yes, we should get Osama Bin Laden, but nothing will be gained unless Afghanistan is rebuilt into a functioning society. Otherwise, another extreme group sympathetic to Al-Qaida, will come into power. |
That's not what the majority of voters signed up for -and it definately wasn't stated at the get-go. I don't recall anyone saying that the West needed to be in Afghanistan for 20 years to create a functional government when they talked about going in there.
| Quote: |
| With regards to Pakistan, we never shifted our efforts from Afghanistan to Pakistan. That would have been ridiculous. Instead, in order for the effort in Afghanistan to succeed, we need Pakistan's government on our side. Otherwise, the Taliban will continue taking advantage of the borderlands and as a by-product start moving further into Pakistan. |
But again, it comes down to - what are our goals? Fighting terror? Containing it? Taking down Bin Laden?
because it doens't seem to be working very well to me. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
For me, it's always been about 'why are we there?'
I seem to recall going in to get Bin Laden because of 9/11.
Mission: Failure
Then it morphed into state building.
Mission: Failure
Then it because containing extremism in Pakistan.
Mission: ??? |
The Taliban was able to come into power in the first place due to the fact that after the Soviet invasion, Afghanistan was in ruins.
Yes, we should get Osama Bin Laden, but nothing will be gained unless Afghanistan is rebuilt into a functioning society. Otherwise, another extreme group sympathetic to Al-Qaida, will come into power.
With regards to Pakistan, we never shifted our efforts from Afghanistan to Pakistan. That would have been ridiculous. Instead, in order for the effort in Afghanistan to succeed, we need Pakistan's government on our side. Otherwise, the Taliban will continue taking advantage of the borderlands and as a by-product start moving further into Pakistan. |
It is exactly this type of reasoning that has put us in the quagmire that we currently find ourselves in.
We can't build Afghanistan into a functioning society again. We need to realize that. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
For me, it's always been about 'why are we there?'
I seem to recall going in to get Bin Laden because of 9/11.
Mission: Failure
Then it morphed into state building.
Mission: Failure
Then it because containing extremism in Pakistan.
Mission: ??? |
The Taliban was able to come into power in the first place due to the fact that after the Soviet invasion, Afghanistan was in ruins.
Yes, we should get Osama Bin Laden, but nothing will be gained unless Afghanistan is rebuilt into a functioning society. Otherwise, another extreme group sympathetic to Al-Qaida, will come into power.
With regards to Pakistan, we never shifted our efforts from Afghanistan to Pakistan. That would have been ridiculous. Instead, in order for the effort in Afghanistan to succeed, we need Pakistan's government on our side. Otherwise, the Taliban will continue taking advantage of the borderlands and as a by-product start moving further into Pakistan. |
It is exactly this type of reasoning that has put us in the quagmire that we currently find ourselves in.
We can't build Afghanistan into a functioning society again. We need to realize that. |
So, you have given up on an entire society.
Yes, it is going to be a difficult challenge, but not impossible because these are people who like us, have dreams for their future.
No, the real problem was that the US diverted its attention away from Afghanistan early on and then started a war in Iraq. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
For me, it's always been about 'why are we there?'
I seem to recall going in to get Bin Laden because of 9/11.
Mission: Failure
Then it morphed into state building.
Mission: Failure
Then it because containing extremism in Pakistan.
Mission: ??? |
The Taliban was able to come into power in the first place due to the fact that after the Soviet invasion, Afghanistan was in ruins.
Yes, we should get Osama Bin Laden, but nothing will be gained unless Afghanistan is rebuilt into a functioning society. Otherwise, another extreme group sympathetic to Al-Qaida, will come into power.
With regards to Pakistan, we never shifted our efforts from Afghanistan to Pakistan. That would have been ridiculous. Instead, in order for the effort in Afghanistan to succeed, we need Pakistan's government on our side. Otherwise, the Taliban will continue taking advantage of the borderlands and as a by-product start moving further into Pakistan. |
It is exactly this type of reasoning that has put us in the quagmire that we currently find ourselves in.
We can't build Afghanistan into a functioning society again. We need to realize that. |
Functioning, no. Stable, hopefully. Trying to impose a liberal democracy is a nice idea, but is probably one of the biggest reasons we have been stuck. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
The Taliban was able to come into power in the first place due to the fact that after the Soviet invasion, Afghanistan was in ruins. |
That, and the factthat they were assisted by the CIA. |
The problem was not so much that the mujahadeen were funded by the CIA to fight the Russians. The problem was that the US did nothing to help rebuild Afghanistan afterwards. We cannot afford to make the same mistake twice.
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
| Yes, we should get Osama Bin Laden, but nothing will be gained unless Afghanistan is rebuilt into a functioning society. Otherwise, another extreme group sympathetic to Al-Qaida, will come into power. |
That's not what the majority of voters signed up for -and it definately wasn't stated at the get-go. I don't recall anyone saying that the West needed to be in Afghanistan for 20 years to create a functional government when they talked about going in there. |
I remember this being discussed early on. Perhaps, you forgot about this once the US made the mistake of invading Iraq.
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
| With regards to Pakistan, we never shifted our efforts from Afghanistan to Pakistan. That would have been ridiculous. Instead, in order for the effort in Afghanistan to succeed, we need Pakistan's government on our side. Otherwise, the Taliban will continue taking advantage of the borderlands and as a by-product start moving further into Pakistan. |
But again, it comes down to - what are our goals? Fighting terror? Containing it? Taking down Bin Laden?
because it doens't seem to be working very well to me. |
I think our goals are at first containing it and then changing the circumstances that caused it in the first place (which is precisely why we should do what we can to make Afghanistan become a functioning society). Obviously, getting Osama Bin Laden would be a nice bonus.
Now, don't get me wrong. I have some serious misgivings with the way that the war has been run. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
For me, it's always been about 'why are we there?'
I seem to recall going in to get Bin Laden because of 9/11.
Mission: Failure
Then it morphed into state building.
Mission: Failure
Then it because containing extremism in Pakistan.
Mission: ??? |
The Taliban was able to come into power in the first place due to the fact that after the Soviet invasion, Afghanistan was in ruins.
Yes, we should get Osama Bin Laden, but nothing will be gained unless Afghanistan is rebuilt into a functioning society. Otherwise, another extreme group sympathetic to Al-Qaida, will come into power.
With regards to Pakistan, we never shifted our efforts from Afghanistan to Pakistan. That would have been ridiculous. Instead, in order for the effort in Afghanistan to succeed, we need Pakistan's government on our side. Otherwise, the Taliban will continue taking advantage of the borderlands and as a by-product start moving further into Pakistan. |
It is exactly this type of reasoning that has put us in the quagmire that we currently find ourselves in.
We can't build Afghanistan into a functioning society again. We need to realize that. |
So, you have given up on an entire society.
Yes, it is going to be a difficult challenge, but not impossible because these are people who like us, have dreams for their future.
No, the real problem was that the US diverted its attention away from Afghanistan early on and then started a war in Iraq. |
I have given up on us changing an entire society. Call me realistic if you will. 
Seriously though, it is up to that society itself, not some outside power. And this is true anywhere and everywhere, not just Afghanistan.
| Quote: |
Yes, it is going to be a difficult challenge, but not impossible because these are people who like us, have dreams for their future.
No, the real problem was that the US diverted its attention away from Afghanistan early on and then started a war in Iraq. |
While your idealism is nice, the fact of the matter is those people are not in power in Afghanistan and we're not working with them.
And yes, our diverted attention is one reason why we're in our current position. That's also exactly why we will fail: we simply do not have the dedication nor focus to properly do what needs to be done.
| Leon wrote: |
| Functioning, no. Stable, hopefully. Trying to impose a liberal democracy is a nice idea, but is probably one of the biggest reasons we have been stuck. |
Alas, we continue to back the corrupt Karazi regime. I really don't think it has a good chance of becoming stable frankly. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
Alas, we continue to back the corrupt Karazi regime. I really don't think it has a good chance of becoming stable frankly. |
A corrupt regime can be stable. In Afghanistan I think it would hard to be stable and not corrupt on some level. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
Alas, we continue to back the corrupt Karazi regime. I really don't think it has a good chance of becoming stable frankly. |
A corrupt regime can be stable. In Afghanistan I think it would hard to be stable and not corrupt on some level. |
Yes, I didn't mean to imply that corruption means unstable. I just think the Karazi government has let corruption get out of control and as someone else noted, it is a narco state. Karazi doesn't have any more power than other regional "leaders". For awhile now the central government has only had control over Kabul and its surrounding areas, and even that looks questionable at times. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
That's not what the majority of voters signed up for -and it definately wasn't stated at the get-go. I don't recall anyone saying that the West needed to be in Afghanistan for 20 years to create a functional government when they talked about going in there. |
I remember this being discussed early on. Perhaps, you forgot about this once the US made the mistake of invading Iraq. |
So, when Bush said to the Afghan leadership - give us Osama or we'll come in and get him - there was a massive consensus and discussion that "we'd" be there to build a state?
Sorry man, my memory is decent, but for some reason I seem to have forgotten that massive detail.
Are you seriously saying that the news clips were focusing on building a new nation... because my memory seems to be more tilted towards going after the criminal responsible for 9/11. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| The fact that the linkers, and wikilinks, didn't remove names is criminally irresponsible. Leaving the names of afghans who aided the united states is akin to publishing a hit list. It would be one thing if they had redacted the names, but as it is who ever leaked it is no hero, and when caught I will have no sympathy for what happens to them. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| The fact that the linkers, and wikilinks, didn't remove names is criminally irresponsible. Leaving the names of afghans who aided the united states is akin to publishing a hit list. It would be one thing if they had redacted the names, but as it is who ever leaked it is no hero, and when caught I will have no sympathy for what happens to them. |
How much sympathy do you have for all the innocents that have been killed in this war?
I mean, are you generally a sypathetic fellow who will now 'withhold' sympathy, or are you generally calous to begin with? |
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