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Vagabundo
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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 Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:10 am Post subject: |
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thinking about it, I can see the mistake in Park for Bak (though less so than Gim/Kim)
that mistake suggests a monolingualism or tone deafness but I can begrudgingly "buy it".
but there is absolutely no way to mistake an "L" in Lee when the tongue never touches the upper palate.
simply not possible. |
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Koharski
Mod Team
Joined: 20 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:12 am Post subject: |
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I believe this to be the answer. Look at the North Korean goaltender (Ri) or Admiral Yi Sun-shin. I had it explained to me that the Hanja spelling determined the romanticized version.
Koharski |
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Vagabundo
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| Koharski wrote: |
I believe this to be the answer. Look at the North Korean goaltender (Ri) or Admiral Yi Sun-shin. I had it explained to me that the Hanja spelling determined the romanticized version.
Koharski |
I understand the Koreans actually say "Ri" (according to Wiki)
the Chinese language link suggests an existence of the L however.
I do not know Chinese, so do not know how to formulate the sound off that Hanja character.
what would also be interesting would be to find out who was responsible for the Romanization of Lee.. a Korean or a Westerner.
I would have certain "words" (such as the ones you disapprove of above) for any Westerner that put an L in that sound.
I would agree that foreigners have a right to spell something how they want, though I would draw the line in people changing the spelling in their OWN language, and then insisting on some completely unnatural prounciation that every native speaker would mispronounce except the "genius"  creator of the name.
the parents of the US baseball player Chone Figgins would come to mind (and some other athletes)
Mr. Figgins says his first name is "Shaun" or Shawn or Sean there are some other funny NBA examples. |
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johnnyrook
Joined: 08 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:24 am Post subject: |
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My personal theory about the 'Lee' thing is that alternate spellings which reflect the sound just don't really stand alone as words with the roman alphabet - "Ee" "E"? They both look strange. And spelling it "I" would guarantee every native English speaker would horribly miscontrue the pronunciation. With the 'L' there, it looks like a more aesthetically balanced word.
As far as I'm concerned, trying to rely on romanizations of korean is a terribly confusing way to understand the language. Best off just learning the alphabet and trying your best to pick up the correct sounds. The romanized spellings of words are often awful.
This reminds me of one time when I was writing student's names on the board in class. I usually write them in hangul but at a whim I was using the roman alphabet. One of my students, 채린, protested when I wrote her name as Chae-rin, and wanted it written as Chae-Lin. Now, I think I've actually got the mixed l/r sound of ㄹ pretty down pat, and I think it's much more suitable with an r at the start of syllables like that. I tested her a few times anyway, pronouncing it Chae-Lin, and Chae-rin to see which one she thought sounded right, and she picked Chae-rin every time. Still preferred the 'L' spelling. |
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Vagabundo
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| johnnyrook wrote: |
My personal theory about the 'Lee' thing is that alternate spellings which reflect the sound just don't really stand alone as words with the roman alphabet - "Ee" "E"? They both look strange. And spelling it "I" would guarantee every native English speaker would horribly miscontrue the pronunciation. With the 'L' there, it looks like a more aesthetically balanced word.
As far as I'm concerned, trying to rely on romanizations of korean is a terribly confusing way to understand the language. Best off just learning the alphabet and trying your best to pick up the correct sounds. The romanized spellings of words are often awful.
This reminds me of one time when I was writing student's names on the board in class. I usually write them in hangul but at a whim I was using the roman alphabet. One of my students, 채린, protested when I wrote her name as Chae-rin, and wanted it written as Chae-Lin. Now, I think I've actually got the mixed l/r sound of ㄹ pretty down pat, and I think it's much more suitable with an r at the start of syllables like that. I tested her a few times anyway, pronouncing it Chae-Lin, and Chae-rin to see which one she thought sounded right, and she picked Chae-rin every time. Still preferred the 'L' spelling. |
well my issue with your stance would be that Romanization and the Roman alphabet and English do not go hand in hand.
In fact, any pronounciations in English are logically preposterous. No other languages that I know of have multiple words that sound EXACTLY the same, but are written with different spellings with no change in the tone of the voice or any other distinction. (no, know, many e.g.s)
I understand the issues where you have a mixture or a strange sound not properly reflected in the Roman alphabet (though you'd be amazed at how capable it is, with certain modifications, for reflecting pretty much every sound in the Western world, outside of English, which is a horrid example in the first place)
Now that we're discussing it, I just remembered another romanization "butchery", which once again makes me wonder just who created these "romanizations".
Choi.
Every single Korean student who I called Choi, would laugh, contort their face and say Chae..
(which is easy enough to understand and write THAT way)
p.s. It's unfortunate they prefer a spelling that's sure to confuse a person who's native to the Roman alphabet. |
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runthegauntlet
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Location: the southlands.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| Vagabundo wrote: |
| p.s. It's unfortunate they prefer a spelling that's sure to confuse a person who's native to the Roman alphabet. |
Or perhaps they just don't care.
Lucky for them, though, that you're here to blaze the trail for the honor of Koreans everywhere. |
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sulperman
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| johnnyrook wrote: |
Choi.
Every single Korean student who I called Choi, would laugh, contort their face and say Chae..
(which is easy enough to understand and write THAT way)
p.s. It's unfortunate they prefer a spelling that's sure to confuse a person who's native to the Roman alphabet. |
I might have screwed up the quotes above, and if so, sorry.
My ideal 최 spelling would be chwae, even though it looks pretty weird. Must be somewhat annoying to be the guy who owns Choi's tacos and always have to hear 초이스 타코스.
edit- i did screw it up, Vagabundo said this, not johnnyrock.
Last edited by sulperman on Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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johnnyrook
Joined: 08 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| I understand that. In most languages that use the roman alphabet, 'I' would be correctly read the way that the ㅣ character is pronounced in Korean.But then romanization of Hangul was originally done by (and several times revised by) native english speakers, and I don't think the Koreans themselves would have Portuguese or Spanish or Romanian speakers as their key targets in transliterating their language anyway. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:15 am Post subject: |
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It's pronounced "Lee" in Chinese, and it used to be pronounced "Lee" in Korean until a couple hundred years ago, when there was a sound shift in the Korean language and they started dropping the "L" sound.
The North Korean government, however, actively decided to restore the "L" sound, so North Koreans would pronounce their words the way their ancestors did. So they actually do pronounce it "Lee" in North Korea.
Last edited by redaxe on Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Vagabundo
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| johnnyrook wrote: |
| I understand that. In most languages that use the roman alphabet, 'I' would be correctly read the way that the ㅣ character is pronounced in Korean.But then romanization of Hangul was originally done by (and several times revised by) native english speakers, and I don't think the Koreans themselves would have Portuguese or Spanish or Romanian speakers as their key targets in transliterating their language anyway. |
understood.
that's at the core of my "issues". I don't expect people native to Roman alphabets to make such mistakes.
Especially something so clear as the lack of L, in the (South) Korean "Lee".
I also understand your point about English speakers doing the "romanization" but English speakers realize the silliness of English pronuciation, and that's why you will often see a more "phonetic" Englishicized Roman spelling in the dictionary, etc - as a guide to how it's pronounced.
sulperman, thanks. I'll keep an ear out for chwae..
will try it out next time I get my after school class. |
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Vagabundo
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| redaxe wrote: |
It used to be pronounced "Lee" a couple hundred years ago, but there was a sound shift in the Korean language and they started dropping the "L" sound.
The North Korean government, however, actively decided to restore the "L" sound, so North Koreans would pronounce their words the way their ancestors did. So they actually do pronounce it "Lee" in North Korea. |
now THIS is interesting.
I could understand the troubles with l/r differentation, (N Koreans supposedly say "ri", but we know how Asians have tremendous difficulties with the Western r sound and its difference with l)
(one of the more amusing things you will hear are Chinese learning Spanish, with its 2 r's.. the "regular" one, and the harder, rolling double r sound.)
I notice many Koreans struggle with differentiating between fruit and flute) |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| Vagabundo wrote: |
| redaxe wrote: |
It used to be pronounced "Lee" a couple hundred years ago, but there was a sound shift in the Korean language and they started dropping the "L" sound.
The North Korean government, however, actively decided to restore the "L" sound, so North Koreans would pronounce their words the way their ancestors did. So they actually do pronounce it "Lee" in North Korea. |
now THIS is interesting.
I could understand the troubles with l/r differentation, (N Koreans supposedly say "ri", but we know how Asians have tremendous difficulties with the Western r sound and its difference with l)
(one of the more amusing things you will hear are Chinese learning Spanish, with its 2 r's.. the "regular" one, and the harder, rolling double r sound.)
I notice many Koreans struggle with differentiating between fruit and flute) |
It's not about "L" versus "R" though. Don't think about it in terms of English or any European language. Lee and Rhee are pronounced exactly the same in North Korea: 리 (and in South Korea they are both 이). It doesn't make any difference whether you romanize ㄹ as an "L" or an "R" because it's neither. It's ㄹ.
But the thing is, ㄹ also has two different sounds in Korean. The ㄹ in 라면 ("r" in "ramyeon") is different from the ㄹ in 알 ("l" in "al"/"egg"). Again it has nothing to do with R versus L, it's just a Korean pronunciation rule, ㄹ sounds differently depending on whether it's at the beginning, middle, or end of a word.
Anyway, the important part was that "Lee" is a historical throwback because the Korean surname "Lee" used to actually be pronounced "Lee" and not just "ee." And in North Korea, it still is.
It can be spelled Lee, Rhee, Li, Yi, I, in different Romanization systems, but in Korean it's all the same name. |
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Vagabundo
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| redaxe wrote: |
| Vagabundo wrote: |
| redaxe wrote: |
It used to be pronounced "Lee" a couple hundred years ago, but there was a sound shift in the Korean language and they started dropping the "L" sound.
The North Korean government, however, actively decided to restore the "L" sound, so North Koreans would pronounce their words the way their ancestors did. So they actually do pronounce it "Lee" in North Korea. |
now THIS is interesting.
I could understand the troubles with l/r differentation, (N Koreans supposedly say "ri", but we know how Asians have tremendous difficulties with the Western r sound and its difference with l)
(one of the more amusing things you will hear are Chinese learning Spanish, with its 2 r's.. the "regular" one, and the harder, rolling double r sound.)
I notice many Koreans struggle with differentiating between fruit and flute) |
It's not about "L" versus "R" though. Don't think about it in terms of English or any European language. Lee and Rhee are pronounced exactly the same in North Korea: 리 (and in South Korea they are both 이). It doesn't make any difference whether you romanize ㄹ as an "L" or an "R" because it's neither. It's ㄹ.
But the thing is, ㄹ also has two different sounds in Korean. The ㄹ in 라면 ("r" in "ramyeon") is different from the ㄹ in 알 ("l" in "al"/"egg"). Again it has nothing to do with R versus L, it's just a Korean pronunciation rule, ㄹ sounds differently depending on whether it's at the beginning, middle, or end of a word.
Anyway, the important part was that "Lee" is a historical throwback because the Korean surname "Lee" used to actually be pronounced "Lee" and not just "ee." And in North Korea, it still is.
It can be spelled Lee, Rhee, Li, Yi, I, in different Romanization systems, but in Korean it's all the same name. |
very good, thanks.
how do you pronounce ㄹ then?
simply as either an R or an L, depending on its place in the word?
or some unintelligible mixture of the two?
far as i'm concerned, they're distinct sounds.. the L forces the tongue to touch upper palate.. in the R, the tongue is vibrated (and curled). It can NOT be the same sound/letter.
would a similar rule hold with g and k.. then? depending on its placement in the word, it'll be pronounced either g or k?
p.s. btw. this is tremendously interesting and helpful. If I had a teacher who could explain things like this to me, it would make learning Korean a far more achievable and interesting activity for me.
Last edited by Vagabundo on Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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BaldTeacher
Joined: 02 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:47 am Post subject: |
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Looks like it wasn't the Westerners fault after all, so that's one less thing that you can self-hate about. It's okay though, I'm sure you'll find a way to double the self-righteousness in order to compensate.
I'm sure that the Koreans are all impressed with your little crusade. You're not like those other foreigners, you're a precious little waygook snowflake. |
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Vagabundo
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| BaldTeacher wrote: |
Looks like it wasn't the Westerners fault after all, so that's one less thing that you can self-hate about. It's okay though, I'm sure you'll find a way to double the self-righteousness in order to compensate.
I'm sure that the Koreans are all impressed with your little crusade. You're not like those other foreigners, you're a precious little waygook snowflake. |
Oh, I'm anything but a "self hater". Clearly you haven't really read my (other) posts and my level of interest in what Koreans think is just a speck below my levels of interest in what Americans think or Europeans think or just about anyone thinks. (which is basically I don't care.. what's a speckle below I don't care?) My only concern is the opinion of an individual whom I know and whom I respect, regardless of their ethnicity/nationality.
I was called a snowflake once. By some brothas in the deep hood when I was in there seeing a sistah that caught my fancy. They asked her who's snowflake?
one of the funnier/funniest things I've ever heard. I was chuckling on the spot. |
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