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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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hondaicivic
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Location: Daegu, South Korea
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 Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| young_clinton wrote: |
Korea is what it is today because of Western loans period. Also what about Plumpynut for the starving children and anti-malarial drugs. There should be more not less. I believe in foreign aid because its a moral imperative. Anybody that does not believe in moral imperatives (Helping the weak and the helpless) should not be an educator. For instance how would you feel if you were starving and your children were dying from malaria.
They should start using DDT again. |
Don't forget about Japan as well buddy.......half of the loans came from Japan as well as technology transfer. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Korea is what it is today because of Western loans period |
Ok. How about this:
"Korea is what it is today because they used the Western loans for productive uses" |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| young_clinton wrote: |
| I believe in foreign aid because its a moral imperative. |
Your moral imperative is the reason Africa is still a third world region. Here's a book written by a woman with a Phd in economics from Oxford showing precisely that.
| Kuros wrote: |
| Ha! Korea received so much money from Washington in the late 50s and early 60s that it amounted to $600/person |
I was referring to China and India |
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morrisonhotel
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Location: Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
Your moral imperative is the reason Africa is still a third world region. Here's a book written by a woman with a Phd in economics from Oxford showing precisely that.
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I've read that and I didn't think it was that persuasive. Personally, I thought this argued much more effectively. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:59 am Post subject: |
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^ I've never read it. Perhaps I should.
I suspect international aid, like welfarism at home, is about the provision of jobs first and foremost.
Milton Friedman: "Those who intend to serve only the public interest are led by an invisible hand to serve private interests that were no part of their original intention" |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:40 am Post subject: |
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I think people are going overboard by saying all aid is bad. Just a couple thoughts of my own:
1. As young_clinton mentioned, I do think medical assistance is crucial. I don't see the harm in treating AIDS patients and fighting debiliting diseases in Africa.
2. Cash transfers (with appropriate incentives) are shown to work. They also minimize the potential for corruption.
Point being, some development programs WORK. Alas the vast majority do NOT. Politics, unfortunately, support the ones that don't. For instance, a friend of mine went to Haiti to help a us government program and his team would get calls from congressmen asking to look into using products a, b, and c. Of course all those products were from those congressmens' districts and all were useless and ineffective. Also, agencies fight amongst themselves of course. They're more interested in promoting their own interests than actually helping their hosts. |
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No_hite_pls
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right
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| Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
Korea has been colonized repeatedly throughout history (and, as Kuros points out, has been given aid), and is none the less doing fairly well by modern standards.
Saying the problem in Africa is aid is like saying the problem in Africa is the result of colonialism. I think to really understand Africa, we need to stop talking about us and start focusing on them. Africa was a tribal hell hole before colonialism. Africa, despite being dolled up with Western political ideas and foreign technology, is still a tribal hell hole. The African people are culturally -- and perhaps even to some extent biologically -- inclined towards a mode of life different than our own. Changing their culture to make it compatible with the modern world isn't something we can do for them. They'll have to do it themselves over time, and the meanwhile is going to be painful. That's life, unfortunately.
I suppose mark me down as an "I don't care," because although I do care, I think the real problems aren't ones we as non-members of their societies can solve. |
Great post! +100 |
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Biblethumper
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Location: Busan, Korea
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| Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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Somalia and Haiti should be conquered an ruled by a benevolent Great Power: they are children in need of a father.
"Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance,a nd the uttermost parts ofthe earth for thy possession." Psalm 1:7
Cote d'Ivoire at least has a legitimate government in waiting: an army from the civilized world should intervene and destroy the usurper's forces.
Afghanistan's corrupt government should be deposed and replaced by an American regime like in post-war Japan. The Taliban should be destroyed ruthlessly like the Russian success in Chechenya.
The Americans should give direct and overwhelming military aid to Mexico to destroy every gang.
"But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off." Psalm 37:38
None of this will happen, so let us simply pray that these tribulations will serve their purpose. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Biblethumper wrote: |
Somalia and Haiti should be conquered an ruled by a benevolent Great Power: they are children in need of a father.
"Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance,a nd the uttermost parts ofthe earth for thy possession." Psalm 1:7
Cote d'Ivoire at least has a legitimate government in waiting: an army from the civilized world should intervene and destroy the usurper's forces.
Afghanistan's corrupt government should be deposed and replaced by an American regime like in post-war Japan. The Taliban should be destroyed ruthlessly like the Russian success in Chechenya.
The Americans should give direct and overwhelming military aid to Mexico to destroy every gang.
"But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off." Psalm 37:38
None of this will happen, so let us simply pray that these tribulations will serve their purpose. |
Just when I start to get bored with the board, and think I've heard everyone's opinion and know what they're going to say, we get another voice.
More entertainment! I demand more! |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Korea has been colonized repeatedly throughout history (and, as Kuros points out, has been given aid), and is none the less doing fairly well by modern standards. |
Odd statement. Korea has been colonized once, by Japan, in modern times. Unless you are referring to the Mongol invasion and subsequent tributary relations with China? That still doesn't really qualify as something that happened 'repeatedly'. |
Yes it does, but I'm not really interested in arguing the sematics of the word.
| Privateer wrote: |
| We have to recognize, however, that Japan, although brutally authoritarian, did develop Korea; and then Korea received a lot of aid initially. |
Africa has received plenty of aid, and the only reason Africa has even the level of technological and industrial development it has is because of western involvement. Africa is dysfunctional by our standards because of the people that live there, not because of the big bad West. There's zero reason for guilt. Zero. |
I'd say that it is not necessarily all because of the people living there, but in a large part due to the manner in which colonialism set up artifical nation states by drawing lines on a map of a continent that they didn't understand. When you put several tribes that have historically been opposed to each other in the same state, and arbitrarily cut off tribes with borders, then the unsurprising outcome is chaos and civil war. There is so much emphasis on the idea of a nation state in the international system that these countries have, at least officially, stayed together. The problem is that aid doesn't work because aid is given to other governments, how do you give aid to countries that don't really exist. Somali, and other countries like it, are an abstract idea forced upon a map and upheld by international organizations, not by the people living there. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| There's a lesson to be learned from South Korean and from Japanese history: countries that have been able to protect their domestic economies have succeeded in developing; countries that have not been able so to do have not developed. From colonial times right up until the present, Haiti has been forced to let foreign companies come in, take possession of its resources, and do what they like, while a brutal allegedly democratic regime, - uncensured, indeed supported, by the U.S. - terrorizes the population. What the West can and should do for third world countries is support democratic movements, stop supporting repressive regimes, and stop forcing on them economic policies that they don't want. Then they'll at least have a chance to begin the task of dealing with their internal problems. |
There's much truth in that. State subsidies poured into developing high-end consumerables and strict controls on the movement of financial capital were features of both Korea's and Japan's economic development. As Chomsky pursuasively argued, that's partly why Indonesia isn't in the same league. |
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recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
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| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| What is it with Western nations propping up things that have no value? It's bad enough we give tax payer money to people that don't work domestically, governments have to piss our money to foreigners too. Ridiculous. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| recessiontime wrote: |
| What is it with Western nations propping up things that have no value? It's bad enough we give tax payer money to people that don't work domestically, governments have to piss our money to foreigners too. Ridiculous. |
No value, don't be naive. Do you really think aid money is free. It fosters relationships that benefit western nations, many of the third world countries are rich in resources, much more than most developed nations. Aid money also buys influence with these nations that can be used in various ways and can influence these countries policy decisions in both domestic and foreign policies in such a way that benefits the richer nation. Also by preventing and slowing down diseases like AIDS it makes a larger, and more world wide, epidemic less likely. Not to mention that when it is done properly, as it some times is, it saves lives. But who cares about that. |
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tfunk
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
When you delve into the motivations of every "kind" act, you realize that egoism can never be extricated from it. People feel a sense of well-being whenever they help those in need and a sense of guilt when they don't. So-called altruists who travel the world doing voluntary work for the poor do so chiefly for the pleasure that results from doing good for others.
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I think it's very Christian of you to think that charity shouldn't be associated with pleasure in order for it to be virtuous. |
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