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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: The Model Minority Myth |
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| In any case, in the US there are about 5000 Sarah Palins for every one in Latin America. |
Ah, I found the problem BB.
Sarah Palin is not a populist. She's a neo-conservative.
methdxman, you might have some interesting things to say but I can't tell. After every word a little voice in my head inserts commentary. It sounds like this:
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| Show (arrogant) me (arrogant) a (arrogant) guy (arrogant) who (arrogant) has (arrogant)... |
and so on. It's bloody distracting. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Dumb people don't speak up in India? In lots of Latin America? You must be kidding me. |
Mental picture of that Korean protester with his pants down.
As for Chua's book and whatnot, from what I understand her view was far more nuanced than what was highlighted in the review articles.
I'd also say that any approach to parenting should be adjusted to the individual child and that a given approach does not guarantee results.
Some kids raised the Chinese way will turn into rebellious drug burnouts. Some will be average. Some will be both disciplined AND creative.
Conversely not every child raised in a Western fashion will end up a drifter. Some will be normal, some will be rote-memorizing nerds with poor social skills but are great at the violin. It all depends on the child.
You can raise kids the exact same way and get two different results.
I will say though that whenever people carry on about nerds having low social skills or math and science people being non-creative or stuff like that I take it with a grain of salt. The fact is a large number of people who go on like that are trying to compensate for their own inadequacies and yes, fear of math and science. Often these people aren't nearly as "creative" and outside the box as they think they are.
"Oooo, you smoked a bunch of pot, listened to obscure music, backpacked through Europe, have a blog, and were in a band. NEVER heard that one before you rebel." |
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methdxman
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: The Model Minority Myth |
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| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| In any case, in the US there are about 5000 Sarah Palins for every one in Latin America. |
Ah, I found the problem BB.
Sarah Palin is not a populist. She's a neo-conservative.
methdxman, you might have some interesting things to say but I can't tell. After every word a little voice in my head inserts commentary. It sounds like this:
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| Show (arrogant) me (arrogant) a (arrogant) guy (arrogant) who (arrogant) has (arrogant)... |
and so on. It's bloody distracting. |
I tried being nice on this forum from the get-go, but then I kept getting all these smart-ass answers from these bitter English teachers filled with angst. I adapt to the environment. There's no need to be nice on this forum.
You can't have conversation on this forum without someone insulting someone. It's either a) Koreans are evil racists or when you tell them they're wrong it's b) ad hominem.
So I decided to tear down their stupid arguments + attack ad hominem.
What's the problem? I can't have people (for no reason mind you) tell me that I must be jealous of them, because I disagree with them. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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The CE forum ≠ GD forum
Bucheon Bum is probably the most polite person on the entire internet. |
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methdxman
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
The CE forum ≠ GD forum
Bucheon Bum is probably the most polite person on the entire internet. |
LOL if you say so. Seriously, this forum gets more ridiculous every day. Being polite means calling someone dumb and sarcastically telling me I should become a political scientist right? Yeah.
No wonder you guys find it so hard to adapt in Korea. Oh wait, n/m it's because Koreans are evil racists. My bad, I forgot. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:13 pm Post subject: Re: The Model Minority Myth |
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| methdxman wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| methdxman wrote: |
| On the flipside, America produces too many unintelligent people who think that they deserve a voice/opinion. Dumb people do not deserve a voice or opinion, I'm sorry. Dumb people in other countries know that they're dumb and stfu. |
Ok, this is just blatantly wrong. come on man, that's just dumb (ha!). If this was true, how has populism flourished in many parts of the world?? Dumb people don't speak up in India? In lots of Latin America? You must be kidding me.
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| On the flipside, smart people tend to be rich and these rich people tend to want to stay rich longer so dumb people in other countries tend not to mobilize so income disparity becomes bigger and we have more social problems. |
Have you ever thought of becoming a socialogist or political scientist? That was some brilliant analysis there. Once again, extremely simplified.
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| Americans also tend to lack a sense of pragmatism sometimes. You're always told as a kid that don't ever let anyone tell you you can't do something. Which is great because we have many great stories of people who overcome all obstacles to succeed, etc. But then you have kids that have stupid goals like, "I'm going to become a rapper." And you say, "hey let me hear you rap" and they've got nothing. They haven't even tried it. What? |
True, but is that really uniquely American? Is that not just a human trait?
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Anyways going back to the topic at hand... the model minority theory is not a myth in the U.S. Asians have the highest median income out of any ethnic group. Asian Americans are UNDER represented in the prison population (i.e, lower than the % they make up in the regular population). If you look at the UC school system in California Asian-Americans are ridiculously over-represented.
Asian Americans tend to be smart, educated, upstanding citizens. But, again, the real game changers in America tend to be well-to-do White Americans who grow up in more "balanced" environments and are nurtured with a "you can do anything" spirit, which tends to prepare them better for the realities of adult life. |
But as the OP noted, there is a reason for that. Obviously you failed to grasp the meaning of the article: they are the model minority due to the types of Asians that came here, not because Asians have some great culture or genetic trait. (Yes, I know, there are many different cultures in Asia) |
Ok, this is the reason why I have to be mean on this forum.
1) Re: dumb people, I only say these things to get a rise out of people.
2) I used to work for a development bank. Populism hasn't flourished in Latin America, first of all. You are probably referring to Morales, Chavez and Lula. But who has all the wealth and power in those countries? A few very rich, white people. It's going to take generations and generations to even make a dent in this problem.
Dumb people don't speak up in Latin America. They get manipulated by smart people.
Don't talk about stuff you have absolutely no clue about. India? Latin America, are you f'ing kidding me?
3) About American kids: Yes, it's pretty unique to American children. They lack pragmatism about career goals. You'll be hard pressed to find anywhere else kids talking about becoming astronauts without ever knowing what kind of hard-work and determination you need to become one. There has probably only been a few hundred people that have ever flown into space.
4) Asian Americans and Asians in general stress education a lot more than Americans. Everyone knows this. I'm not saying that Asians/Asian-Americans are better parents, but the average Asian/Asian-American stresses certain things in their child's development that tends to create kids who do well in school and don't fall by the wayside in society.
It's not about the type of Asian Americans that went to the U.S. Education being a priority has been ingrained in all Asian cultures.
Again, places like Korea, Japan, Taiwan, China, etc. tend to produce good citizens who are well educated, which usually ends up creating a balanced/good society.
But the west (mostly the U.S.) tends to generate more of the extremes. |
Populism isn't big in Latin America? A few white men hold all the power?? So I guess Chavez has no power, ha I wonder if he knows. Japan has one of the highest suicide rates in the world. Well balanced, um yeah. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| methdxman wrote: |
| Being polite means calling someone dumb and sarcastically telling me I should become a political scientist right? Yeah. |
I didn't call you dumb. I said what you wrote was dumb. There is a difference. I say dumb stuff all the time but I am not lacking in intelligence.
As far as the poly sci remark, your post reeked of arrogance and it pissed me off. My point was: you're not as hot shit as you think you are. That comment in particular was lacking insight. Instead of elaborating on that point or even asking me to back up my statement, you insulted me. In short, you proved my point.
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| No wonder you guys find it so hard to adapt in Korea. Oh wait, n/m it's because Koreans are evil racists. My bad, I forgot. |
1. I no longer live in Korea. That's the case for many of us on the CE Forum (mises, Kuros, Sergio are 3 others off the top of my head).
2. Good luck finding any post I've EVER made on this forum bashing Korea whatsoever. Well ok, who knows, you might find one where I criticized the Korean government about something but probably not.
And to go back to your other post:
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You won't find a 16 year old with bad grades in Europe talking about how he's going to become a millionaire. Just doesn't happen. You see plenty of dumbass, no-hope kids in the US with delusions of grandeur. 0.0001% of these kids go on to become market makers and game changers in this world and the rest serve you hamburgers when you go back home.
Why do you deny that the "American Dream" has been sold to the American public for generations upon generations? That's how it is. People are hopelessly optimistic about their own lives and sometimes to a fault. |
So you can speak for every European teenager? Wow, that's pretty bad ass. That being said, I will concede that it is more commonly found in the USA. And I do agree that the US has more hopeless optimists than pretty much anywhere else. On the other hand, I think you'd agree that Europe doesn't equal the world or even comes close to representing the entire globe. I was thinking more of developing countries actually.
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| Finally, why do so many people here talk about "traveling"? |
You're asking this question on a forum of people that work abroad? I hope this is rhetorical. And that whole traveling rant was reminiscent of the former poster VanIslander- yikes!
Oh, and by the way methdxman, times are changing: the US has bigger inequality than a lot of Latin America now. I'd say those poor people aren't so dumb after all and are getting a clue about who really does serve their interests for the most part (such as Lula, who wasn't from the establishment and isn't exactly a pale face). |
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Madigan
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
As for Chua's book and whatnot, from what I understand her view was far more nuanced than what was highlighted in the review articles. |
Have you read her essay in the WSJ?
Why Chinese Mothers are Superior is still the most read article on WSJ Online after almost two weeks. I didn't find her essay to be "nuanced" at all. She was tooting her own horn while using the contrast between Chinese mothers and Western mothers. She really hit a nerve with many North American mothers. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| Madigan wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
As for Chua's book and whatnot, from what I understand her view was far more nuanced than what was highlighted in the review articles. |
Have you read her essay in the WSJ?
Why Chinese Mothers are Superior is still the most read article on WSJ Online after almost two weeks. I didn't find her essay to be "nuanced" at all. She was tooting her own horn while using the contrast between Chinese mothers and Western mothers. She really hit a nerve with many North American mothers. |
Essay and book are not the same thing.
You do realize that the essay is writing with the most controversial parts so as to stimulate interest in buying the book, right?
Those reviewers who actually read the whole thing seem to say that the book is in fact more nuanced.
As for my thoughts on the general premise of the book, like I said it really depends on the individual side, but dismissing Chura out of hand because she seems harsh is folly. I'm going to ramble and go on some tangents here so bear with me.
I absolutely agree with setting the bar high, not accepting failure, and believing that your child is capable of everything and pushing them to that.
Personally, I really enjoy many of the things my parents did to raise me, especially in giving me freedom to read what I wanted to and the exposure that came through family activities and dragging me along to their social events. It really paid dividends in the adult world- I wasn't afraid to mingle in the company of people twice or three times my age and I could hold intelligent conversations on a wide variety of subjects.
That being said, I was an exceptionally gifted child who really should have ended up at a top public or even Ivy League school. Unfortunately my parents didn't push me academically and instead tried to get me to succeed by changing schools that focused on me being "gifted" and unique, while it was great learning Chess instead of Math, the long-term academic result was not to my benefit. Suddenly math was "boring" and they weren't willing to hover over me to make sure I learned it. I lost all sense of academic structure and Math, which was my best subject in 3rd grade, regressed to a borderline remedial level.
So while I excelled in History and the Humanities (best in a 100 student High School college-prep class that sent its kids to U-M, Duke, Ivy Leagues and whose classes were three times as difficult as the ones at Uni) my math level and grades held me back. Incidentally that class was the one class where exams were viewed competitively and was in an environment where learning, not ignorance was promoted (I think this is more of a factor than "Chinese" parenting)
The point of all of this is that while I thought I'd resent my parents for the times they made me mow the lawn or feed the livestock, the one thing now I kind of hold against them is that they didn't push me harder. You think being made to practice the violin for 3 hours makes a child hate you? Having that child realize they had the talent, but because you didn't push them and now they are flipping fries will produce resentment just as bad (not that I am resentful, wayyyy too much good has come from my parents, but it was the one thing I think they did wrong).
It's only now that I start to realize how important success is. It's not just about you, its about your children. It is far easier to raise them to succeed and push them to succeed if you yourself are successful and reasonably satisfied.
Never accept mediocrity. Never Never Never. I would also submit that the phenomenon of the "Chinese" mother and rote-memorization and standardized testing was the American model for much of our rise to greatness. It was only recently that things have shifted and our current malaise I think may be in part due to that. Have a conversation with college educated adults from the 1950s and then have one with college educated adults of 2000s. Light-years apart and pathetically so.
It used to be that kids were required to memorize their Shakespeare and their Bible and to know their History and math was not regarded as the refuge of the socially awkward. Engineers and Scientists were respected members of society who "helped win the war". Rote-memorization and repetition were commonplace. Guess what? In order to be able to talk about History or Literature or Music, you have to be able to recall information on those subjects in order to analyze them, not go "oh yeah, that guy, wait let me wiki it."
Creativity? Sure its great. Unfortunately what passes for "creativity" in today's educational environment is making it sound like you read the book when really you read the Spark Notes in between bong hits. Either that or it means concocting up some ludicrous connection between two phenomenon that ignores all common-sense but is academically testable. Our bastions of creativity- Art, Poetry, Film are all in great decline and only Music and Fashion cling (barely) to some semblance of that. Ironically most creativity comes from those pencil pushers and geeks in the engineering and science fields who have awkward social skills and are better at rote-memorization (to stereotype). The rest of the creativity comes from the "mixed" field of business which combines aspects of both.
The point is our schools and parents aren't promoting creativity anymore, they're promoting hucksterism. Making seem to mom and dad that you are just doing well enough so that you can still go out and party during High School and make it seem that you're trying at college ("I'm discovering myself *toke*) Same with the Unis, at least with some faculty (many still take the role of academia seriously)
As a parent, I would not let my child get away with that hucksterism. I would not accept the excuses and the desire to quit. Unlike Ms. Chua I wouldn't limit my children to just piano or violin, but once they make a choice they are sticking with it. And they are going to go all out at it. Tantrums or no. And whatever rage they have at the moment I will endure, trusting that when they get older, they will get wiser and understand where I was coming from. You have to believe that your children are great. You have to trust that they will mature so as to see the intent of your actions and how those actions are beneficial.
This is not an endorsement of Ms. Chua. The errors of her approach are already known, but that doesn't mean there isn't any merit to what she is saying. Sadly it seems that a lot of parents are resistant to it because frankly, they don't want to put in the effort and are unwilling to confront the darker angels of human nature.
One also has to think about the legions of parents out there with bright kids who are went bad through a lack of discipline or just gave up at school and ask "Where did I go wrong?" or are stuck with their child working full time at Arby's. It used to be kids from farming and manufacturing families would go to college and bring up the family standard. Now we get the reverse- kids from middle class suburban families regressing. It's not just the fault of the economy. Part of it IS that lack of focus, drive, and discipline. And while I'm for legalization and having a good, a big problem IS drugs and to a significantly lesser extent, alcohol campus culture. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:31 am Post subject: |
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Chua has something of a point. All too many American parents don't spend any time with their kids doing homework, ever. All too many emphasize success in sports and ignore or even denigrate academics.
In my years in an American high school, I can remember lots of classes cancelled for pep rallies, I don't remember any classes cancelled in Korean high schools for pep rallies.
While I think Asian parents tend to go overboard, I think far too many American parents fail to demand peak performance.
On the other hand, Asian parents seem to under-emphasize creativity. This is improving in Korea.
Last weekend I happened to watch 'Friday Night Lights' (good movie!). You could never find a movie like that about a Korean high school. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Suddenly math was "boring" and they weren't willing to hover over me to make sure I learned it. I lost all sense of academic structure and Math, which was my best subject in 3rd grade, regressed to a borderline remedial level. |
Yep... my kids wont get out of it like I did.
| Steelrails wrote: |
Part of it IS that lack of focus, drive, and discipline. And while I'm for legalization and having a good, a big problem IS drugs and to a significantly lesser extent, alcohol campus culture. |
Lack of focus, drive, and discipline: yes. Not so much with the drugs though. Video games were my poison. I think the issue isn't the specific distractions for kids, but the lack of discipline that would steer kids away from them. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I'd also say that any approach to parenting should be adjusted to the individual child and that a given approach does not guarantee results.
Some kids raised the Chinese way will turn into rebellious drug burnouts. Some will be average. Some will be both disciplined AND creative.
Conversely not every child raised in a Western fashion will end up a drifter. Some will be normal, some will be rote-memorizing nerds with poor social skills but are great at the violin. It all depends on the child.
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This is an important point. The best reason why parents should raise their own children is because children are like their parents. One mother giving one-size-fits-all advice to America is obscene.
Also, schools can't really teach creativity. This is where parental interaction plays a very essential role. What is Chua's advice for producing creativity? Practice the violin or the piano. She's not trying to raise creative kids, she's trying to improve their extracurriculars to get into Yale. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Also, schools can't really teach creativity. This is where parental interaction plays a very essential role. What is Chua's advice for producing creativity? Practice the violin or the piano. She's not trying to raise creative kids, she's trying to improve their extracurriculars to get into Yale. |
Yes. To ramble a bit more, we keep on hearing how schools are supposed to teach creativity and socialization. I disagree. Schools are supposed to teach subjects. Parents are supposed to teach creativity, social skills, etc. Here Ms. Chua's approach has its limitations.
I would also say that not every child is creative nor should be taught to be creative. In fact I would submit that a majority of children are NOT creative and tailoring education to encourage creativity in them at the expense of learning skills does a great disservice.
Likewise with socialization and "leadership". Not everyone can, should, or will be a leader. People say "Well those Chinese kids don't end up as leaders. Most Western kids don't end up as leaders as well! However a good many modern children have great social problems, especially at the workplace, because they believe that they should be the boss or that they are the boss. Also overall social skill isn't so much relevant as fitting into a niche, which may or may not require great social skills. And leadership is also not always predicated on great social skills. Sometimes people lead not through great sensitivity, but through sheer force of will. Many Western business leaders are not always people that make you feel happy but people who extract production out of their employees and have the force of will to see things through, no matter who is in their way and what they feel.
Now the shame in Chua's approach is that if her children do have aptitude for creativity or leadership, this may not come out through her methods. On the other hand, the force of will she imparts to her kids will be essential for their professional development. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:22 pm Post subject: ... |
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Well...
Sometimes, in dealing with Asian students, we get off topic and I tell them about my middle school experience:
6th grade- 54 x 26
7th grade- 574 x 26
8th grade- 574 x 263
I was lucky in 8th grade to skip that and go to...algebra!
Algebra is taught in roundabout 6th grade in the Far East.
Couple that with my high school Spanish class:
T: "Mesa" means "table".
S: Haha! No, "table" means "table".
I don't think it's about mothering so much as better schooling and the need to track people into collegiate and vocational roles.
Most Korean students I had contact with were on the Chua plan, but the result isn't a country of Mozarts.
Asian high school>Western High School
Asian University < Western University
The end sum typically is a desire to live a Western lifestyle.
The flipside is offered by Kishore Mahbubani in Can Asians Think?.
He actually dishes it out pretty evenly, but relative to Chua:
She has a daughter who is a concert pianist. That's not a composer.
Big difference.
Master emulators are not necessarily innovators.
That's a problem.
Still, the American work force seems to be on a plan for the rest of the world adapting to us, and the "New American Century" looks more and more like a very ill-timed joke. |
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travel zen
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Location: Good old Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| And leadership is also not always predicated on great social skills. |
Wrong.
Imagine Elmer Fudd as a leader. |
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