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minos
Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Location: kOREA
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 Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| rainism wrote: |
I get the sense it's the men more so than the women that are desperate to get married, especially around Seoul. I constantly read articles about how there are tons of thirty something, upper thirty something single women in the Seoul area who are single and all of their friends are single too.
a new teacher at my school is getting married. She's super cool, 38 Korean age, looks more like 31 or so and best of all exhibits conversational maturity and smarts that are almost universally missing from most K 20 somethings.
Her English is fairly good and she likes to talk to me during lunch to practice her English. I gently probed her about her upcoming nuptials and she said she's under no pressure to get married, she's the youngest of several sisters and it's her oldest sisters who felt family pressure on this front, but not her. Interestingly enough she's getting married to a very traditional Korean male from the traditional area of Daegu. She's a little worried about this, because she's quite liberated. When I gently suggested this could become a major problem and asked why in light of it she's marrying the guy, she said, because I love him.
well, that sounds about as honest an answer as one is going to get. I wish her all the luck.
a couple of years ago, I also encountered a 38 K female teacher who was getting married. Similar situation, looked much younger, far more mature and interesting than her Korean counterparts 10 years younger.
If I were looking for a K gf/ wife, that would have to be the sweet spot to look in, provided one could somehow prevent her from becoming a full blown adjumma, replete with perm, visor and clothes, within a decade. |
Some parents have given up. They'll pretty much take anything including foreigners long as they ain't destitute or disabled as long as it ensures grandsons are coming.
I also think Korean parents hold the right to move out as an incentive for marriage. My landlord's daughter is pretty busted, but well-off. She tried to move out and he just built an addition above the house just for her.
As for cool, smart, older Koreans, they exist and they sure as hell suck at English usually. I speak some korean so I get to meet more of them. A lot are artists. |
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jdog2050
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:34 am Post subject: |
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| minos wrote: |
I suspect the real reason for the delayed marriage age is the financial obligations.
I know plenty of young couples in their twenties who want to get married but are waiting for them to have the cash for a family sized apartment($25K+ minimum deposit for yechigum) along with the wedding(8k-10k) and car(7k+).
I'm a wedding photographer here and Korean parents DO NOT want deviations from the norm. They want wedding halls and hotels(church weddings are for the poor). Court house, beach, and unique cheapo wedding ceremonies are out of the question.
Well, that's how it starts. But are those couples willing to wait years and years just to impress their parents? I'd say that that's becoming a thing of the past. Slowly but surely.
If a young couple can't get this cash, chances are they break up and the girl finds a richer man who can least she becomes a dreaded "nochunyo". |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| decolyon wrote: |
There has been a lot written about this "extended period of youth" that has developed over the last quarter century in the worlds most advanced nations.
In short, if you look back, the age of "adult hood" (by which I mean marriage, having children, working at a career - not just jobs) has gradually gotten older and older since about the turn of the century. It wasn't uncommon for mid and upper teens to start families and careers in the US around the early 1900s. But also, most of those people would have died in their mid 60s.
The fact that we live much longer lives has entitled us to have a longer period of "free" time. Free from the responsibilities of children and a full time career. The fact that society and the economy doesn't need us to reproduce as fast as possible is also a major factor.
30 really is the new 20. |
The flip side to this is that the onset of emotional maturity has advanced accordingly.
Back in the day 13 year olds were expected to conduct themselves as adults. Now we basically treat anyone under 30 as a glorified child and make excuses for them. Is it any wonder that we get the antics that we are experiencing with the 20-30 set? |
That is a gereat point steel. I am noticing this here in Canada as well at my work.
An interesting book (Guyland) came out on this a couple of years ago. The author does take his premise too far and loses some credibility in doing so but the core of his ideas are in line with what you hinted at in your post. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| The recession hasn't helped in terms of kicking the under-30 set into gear. As an '08 grad from a highly rated university, most of my friends who didn't go straight to grad school remained unemployed, underemployed, or volunteering for a solid year or two after graduation, and even now few are on what you could really call a career path. It's hard to grow up when true independence isn't really available to you. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:54 am Post subject: |
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What the census doesn't mention is what proportion of these 30% choose single status of their own free will. I don't see this as social liberation so much as economic strangulation, which is going to reach a crisis point.
Perhaps if the housing bubble bursts some of the older single crowd will seize the opportunity to buy houses and set up families. |
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liveinkorea316
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:08 am Post subject: |
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There are too many people in Asia and the West with too high expectations. People are fed ideas about what they should be and must have in order to have the perfect life and marriage. They put things off in order to achieve this.
Koreans offer a more extreme example of this. There is an extreme amount of students choosing not to graduate their first degrees until they can secure jobs. They will take this same notion forward in their lives...hence the idea that you cannot get married until you have a stable job in a big company, have travelled overseas, passed the age of 32 (in order that you can enjoy your single youth...)...
It makes me sick how many people are merely sheeple and don't bother to look back to their grandparents time to see that nowadays we are far better off in everyway. Even unemployed people are much better off than most employed people in Korea just 30 years ago.
Blaming the economy is a cop out. If people wanted to get married and start families, there is nothing stopping them.
If you wait for the perfect time to do anything you will be waiting forever.
Despite the fact that they mostly have the mind age of 12 year olds, most Korean college grads of 22 are physically, and economically able to get married and have children. They choose not to, but that has nothing to do with opportunities but everything to do with their expectations and social norms in Korea which these days say that marriage comes last on a long line of things, most of which amount to vain selfish actions encouranged by todays Korean society. |
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rainism
Joined: 13 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Despite the fact that they mostly have the mind age of 12 year olds, most Korean college grads of 22 are physically, and economically able to get married and have children. They choose not to, but that has nothing to do with opportunities but everything to do with their expectations and social norms in Korea which these days say that marriage comes last on a long line of things, most of which amount to vain selfish actions encouranged by todays Korean society. |
ok, this is pure gobbledygook and I suspect steelrails with his babble about immature 20 somethings is along the same train of thought.
Becoming an adult and mature essentially means one thing. Becoming responsible for your own actions. I did that in college.
becoming an adult doesn't mean having to get married. it doesn't mean having to have children. Marriage and childrearing isn't glorious and "mature" while bachelorhood/bachelorettehood is "selfish"
besides, there's nothing wrong with being selfish about one's life. You only have one, your best years are very few and the other ones essentially suck. If you want to be proud about not being selfish with your life, go ahead but please don't drag me into it nor castigate me for thinking you're an idiot.
if you want to talk about sheeple, it's the nuclear family with their white picket fence house, the dog Rover and the old Chevy suburban station wagon with fake wooden paneling which today has been upgraded to a minivan.
becoming a worker ant from 30-55 and then waiting to die, that's being sheeple. If you want me to produce more children, don't make them such a huge economic burden replete with squeezing me penniless for their higher education.
Koreans are waking up. Good for them. |
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liveinkorea316
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:13 am Post subject: |
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I was not intending to offend anyone.
I don't think it is a bad thing for people to remain single. I have no opinion about people who delay marriage or decline to get married. Kids are a personal choice.
What I was trying to say, is that people who choose to not get married and not have children should not blame it on the economy. Actually many of them don't so stop putting words in their mouths. Economy is just an excuse. As I said, unemployed Koreans now are many times more well off than their employed grandparents ever were.
The whole reason for later marriage is social. In Korea there is a terribly strong social force that people seem to be affected by. People here are fed expectations and just follow those without deeper analysis.
People are getting married later because people say that their kids will be poor if they get married young; because their friends are not married yet; because they have to find a richer husband; because they are told that they should enjoy their 20's....
There is nothing wrong with any of those things. All I am saying is that they are not conscious choices made by individuals but part of a cultural wave in Korea, the land where people are more inclined to be swayed by the expectations and opinions of others than in any other country.
The USA beef protests, the rise of the Potestant church; the insane education spending; the fanatical xenaphobia of many people here.... they are all results with the same cause. There is something in the culture, or language or something which Koreans get caught in that many of them follow.
The latest example is this idea of individualism of youth and emancipation of women. None of these are bad at all. But I am sure you will see the affects of these trends being more extreme and possibly even harmful here in Korea than in other cultures. Whereas they happen slowly and are part of a range of life choices in the West, you will see Koreans ALL following these trends and very quickly.
China's one-child families produced the Princes and Princesses. What will Koreas social revolution of 20-30's people produce? Time will tell. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| liveinkorea316 wrote: |
| What will Koreas social revolution of 20-30's people produce? Time will tell. |
-hopefully well-travelled people who develop korea socially and culturally rather than just infrastructurally and economically.
| rainism wrote: |
| becoming an adult doesn't mean having to get married. |
Unfortunately most koreans above the age of 50 truly believe this and inflict their fascism on anyone younger.
What happens to someone if they don't get married? Do they explode? become wierd?
No. They develop interests and hobbies, they spend their money on developing themselves and their life experience. The world needs people like that far more than it needs more breeders. |
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minos
Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Location: kOREA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Well, that's how it starts. But are those couples willing to wait years and years just to impress their parents? I'd say that that's becoming a thing of the past. Slowly but surely. |
Yes, because the alternative is living at home with a wife(and soon kids). Nearly ALL Koreans except for the wealthiest live in shoe boxes(in cities, few sane Koreans prefer the countryside). It isn't actually feasible and Korean "homes" make privacy near impossible.
However, very poor Koreans sometime live in one rooms designed for singles.
If they don't please the parents, at least one of them will bail and forbid their son or daughter to marry. |
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minos
Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Location: kOREA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| liveinkorea316 wrote: |
| What will Koreas social revolution of 20-30's people produce? Time will tell. |
-hopefully well-travelled people who develop korea socially and culturally rather than just infrastructurally and economically.
| rainism wrote: |
| becoming an adult doesn't mean having to get married. |
Unfortunately most koreans above the age of 50 truly believe this and inflict their fascism on anyone younger.
What happens to someone if they don't get married? Do they explode? become wierd?
No. They develop interests and hobbies, they spend their money on developing themselves and their life experience. The world needs people like that far more than it needs more breeders. |
It's pretty odd to find someone not married(or something similar and commited) at least once past age 33 unless they're gay in the west too. |
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rainism
Joined: 13 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| minos wrote: |
| Julius wrote: |
| liveinkorea316 wrote: |
| What will Koreas social revolution of 20-30's people produce? Time will tell. |
-hopefully well-travelled people who develop korea socially and culturally rather than just infrastructurally and economically.
| rainism wrote: |
| becoming an adult doesn't mean having to get married. |
Unfortunately most koreans above the age of 50 truly believe this and inflict their fascism on anyone younger.
What happens to someone if they don't get married? Do they explode? become wierd?
No. They develop interests and hobbies, they spend their money on developing themselves and their life experience. The world needs people like that far more than it needs more breeders. |
It's pretty odd to find someone not married(or something similar and commited) at least once past age 33 unless they're gay in the west too. |
antiquated thinking. I and 4 friends I can think off right off the top of my head would fit these parameters and aren't the slightest bit gay. Several others I know chose to get married around 40. One married a brazilian and the other an indonesian woman. Of course, nearly all of us are global wanderers/expats of sorts. Your thinking is more apropos of the sheeple back home but even amongst them I knew many in their mid thirties that were yet to marry and I'm not sure how "committed" their relationships were, if they were in one. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| minos wrote: |
| It's pretty odd to find someone not married(or something similar and commited) at least once past age 33 unless they're gay in the west too. |
It is not "odd" nor does it mean they are "gay".
This is what I was saying. Except for the bigger cities, parts of the west are just as old-fashioned as rural Korea is.
Sheeple attitudes like yours are the reason people hastily marry the nearest stranger at age 30. Because they're not strong enough to stand up to all the small minded prejudice of the majority.
I know many people, westerners and Koreans who are well over 30 and are quite hapilly single. And with no plans to be married.
Reminds me of Benigno Aquino (51), President of the Philippines.
| Quote: |
The Philippines has never had a bachelor president before.
This month Mr. Aquino complained to reporters in Manila that local newspapers were paying more attention to whom he may or may not be dating instead of focusing on the hundreds of millions of dollars that state-run firms are now plowing back into government coffers |
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703507804576129913235226254.html |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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Guys, in the same way that getting married is not what makes you into an adult, NOT getting married and disagreeing with everything your parents do is NOT a sign of maturity or some "great awakening".
If a person claims to be 'liberated' or 'mature' simply because they disagree with their parents or choose not to get married, that is worthy of an eye-roll. 
| Quote: |
| There are too many people in Asia and the West with too high expectations. People are fed ideas about what they should be and must have in order to have the perfect life and marriage. They put things off in order to achieve this. |
This is spot on.
| Quote: |
if you want to talk about sheeple, it's the nuclear family with their white picket fence house, the dog Rover and the old Chevy suburban station wagon with fake wooden paneling which today has been upgraded to a minivan.
becoming a worker ant from 30-55 and then waiting to die, that's being sheeple. If you want me to produce more children, don't make them such a huge economic burden replete with squeezing me penniless for their higher education. |
No, that is not being sheeple. Some people do those things because that is what makes them happy. Having a house with space to grow a garden is nice. People like dogs. A Suburban is a great car for driving the family and taking your boat up north. People need jobs. Not everyone can be a screenwriter or inventor, so they go to work for a company.
"Rebels" have their sheeple to. Great you have a tattoo, listen to obscure bands, smoke pot and grow your hair long. Oooooo, so unique.
| Quote: |
| Yes, because the alternative is living at home with a wife(and soon kids). Nearly ALL Koreans except for the wealthiest live in shoe boxes(in cities, few sane Koreans prefer the countryside). It isn't actually feasible and Korean "homes" make privacy near impossible. |
One thing I always find strange on Dave's is how everyone rants and raves about Koreans living in small apartments, but nearly NET here...lives in a small apartment! Why? Because economics dictate so. In a densely populated nation (remember you can't live on mountains and you need land to farm), yes you are probably going to live in an apartment and land becomes extremely pricey.
| Quote: |
What happens to someone if they don't get married? Do they explode? become wierd?
No. They develop interests and hobbies, they spend their money on developing themselves and their life experience. The world needs people like that far more than it needs more breeders. |
Or they just drift around in a single malaise, moving from one source of gratification to the next and living entirely for themselves, simply consuming and not contributing.
Just because someone is married doesn't make them a breeder. Just because someone is single doesn't make them some open-minded soul who is "developing themselves" and enjoying their "life experience".
I don't care if people get married or not, but some of the stuff on this thread is just the typical naysayer without purpose or thought stuff.
I mean you hear all these people go on and on about not wanting kids and "down with breeders", but when asked to put their money where their mouth is and go out and get a vasectomy, they suddenly all get squirmy. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| decolyon wrote: |
There has been a lot written about this "extended period of youth" that has developed over the last quarter century in the worlds most advanced nations.
In short, if you look back, the age of "adult hood" (by which I mean marriage, having children, working at a career - not just jobs) has gradually gotten older and older since about the turn of the century. It wasn't uncommon for mid and upper teens to start families and careers in the US around the early 1900s. But also, most of those people would have died in their mid 60s.
The fact that we live much longer lives has entitled us to have a longer period of "free" time. Free from the responsibilities of children and a full time career. The fact that society and the economy doesn't need us to reproduce as fast as possible is also a major factor.
30 really is the new 20. |
The flip side to this is that the onset of emotional maturity has advanced accordingly.
Back in the day 13 year olds were expected to conduct themselves as adults. Now we basically treat anyone under 30 as a glorified child and make excuses for them. Is it any wonder that we get the antics that we are experiencing with the 20-30 set? |
That is a gereat point steel. I am noticing this here in Canada as well at my work.
An interesting book (Guyland) came out on this a couple of years ago. The author does take his premise too far and loses some credibility in doing so but the core of his ideas are in line with what you hinted at in your post. |
I'm agreeing with Decolyon here.......one of the benefits of living in a developed country is that there is less pressure to get a steady job and get married in your 20's. I think that's a good thing. Why not extend the party a few years more? Why put the nose to grindstone earlier rather than later? It doesn't make sense.
Personally, I have no problem with 20-something slackers enjoying themselves. Do people in their 20's need to be all mature and serious? People have been bemoaning for forever that 'life goes by so fast' or that 'youth passes so quickly'.......
As someone else said, people's lifespans are increasing. We can put off career and kids for 10 years longer than before because we're living longer and more productive lives.
I also think it makes a lot more sense to take more time to carefully choose a career that you want to get into. What might seem like a good career at 22 might be hateful when you're 32.
And a 35 year old is more likely to make a good marriage/kids decision than a 25 year old.
So, sorry grandad's. Don't agree with you. |
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