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litebear
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Holland
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 Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
It's not that hard to kick someone out of the military. One speedy ticket out is low evaluations. Another is, of course, incarceration by civil authorities. The subject of this thread and its companion thread happens to be covered under the Status of Forces Agreement, aka SOFA. That agreement provides for a few nifty details, one of which is that Fisher won't be separated from the US Army while he's still resident in South Korea. Another detail is that the US military is required to have scheduled visits with him during the entire course of his incarceration here.
To the poster who mentioned something about the US military "letting one of their people sit in jail falsely": well, it's not the military's choice. It's the decision of the Korean courts how long Fisher will spend in jail. The US military will fulfill its obligations to him (health and welfare visits, visits from the military Chaplain, and other permitted/required actions under the SOFA).
To the OP: Fisher's family and friends seem to want some kind of campaign getting the US government and even their local government involved. The US government is involved. The part of the government involved is the US Army. Now, you and they might be interested in this tidbit from the US Embassy in Seoul:
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The Role of the Embassy in an Arrest
The U.S. Embassy cannot assist prisoners with legal representation. When a consular officer visits someone who has been arrested, we provide a list of local attorneys who are known to speak English and to have dealt with foreigners� cases. Our job is to ensure that the arrested U.S. citizen is being treated fairly under local laws, understands the charges, has access to legal counsel, and has any special or emergency needs met to the extent possible. The Embassy can also keep a detainee�s relatives or friends informed of the situation if that is the person�s wish. |
& Under the Life in a Correctional Facility section of the same page:
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| Visitors are allowed but the number and length of visits are strictly controlled. Incoming and outgoing mail is censored. Telephone calls are permitted by inmates who have obtained 1st or 2nd ranks. Other inmates are able to make telephone calls only upon permission by the wardens. |
Here is a fun PDF for you. That's the United States Army in Korea Standards Handbook. Be sure to read Appendix B, Paragraph 7, SOFA STATUS AND KOREAN LAW.
Now, I have a question for you. Consider the following situation. A foreign soldier is stationed in the US, say Texas or California. I use those two states for the simple reason that there are, in fact, foreign servicemembers stationed in those two states, notably at Fort Hood, Texas and at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, California. Now consider that this foreign servicemember is out drinking and has assaulted a local taxi driver and absconded with the cabbie's earnings for the night. When the local police approach the servicemember, said servicemember not only refuses to cooperate with the police but commences to damage the police vehicle. What do you think is going to happen to him if his country's SOFA with the US permits prosecution in the US civilian courts?
You might also notice that the US government (remember the Army?) is fulfilling its obligations under the treaty (SOFA) and is doing so without casting aspersions on the Korean legal system. You might want to try doing that instead of, essentially, embarrassing yourself on this issue. And visiting the man in prison without his permission is neither helpful or realistic. As mentioned on the embassy site, number of visitations is limited. I'd think Fisher would rather have someone appointed by the military or someone in his family using up that quota instead of some stranger.
Do you want to know how I know about what the SOFA is good for and not good for? I spent 20 years of my life in the US military. A good portion of my duties when I was stationed overseas related to SOFA issues. Now, I could've just said you don't know jack on this issue but instead I've provided you links to actual information on the case and relevant international law. |
That was me, yeah thanks for the response, you clearly know the score on this issue. I guess I just felt that if his innocence was an open and shut case (for example, a superior officer had spotted him elsewhere around the time of the incident) a bit more of a fuss might have been made. |
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minos
Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Location: kOREA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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This sounds fishy unless you had some racist cops AND racist judges.
From my time in police stations, Korean cops weren't running kangaroo courts....more laid back than the states(felt like TV show justice).
I also doubt taxi drivers are real big friends with the police. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| litebear wrote: |
| That was me, yeah thanks for the response, you clearly know the score on this issue. I guess I just felt that if his innocence was an open and shut case (for example, a superior officer had spotted him elsewhere around the time of the incident) a bit more of a fuss might have been made. |
If "a superior officer had spotted him elsewhere around the time of the incident," that would not have any bearing whatsoever on the US military ensuring he showed for all inquiries and trial sessions. What it would have a bearing on is the presence of an actual witness for his version of events. The US military would not have been the determiner of that witness's veracity. That honor would've gone to the court that tried Fisher.
The obvious malarkey on this issue is coming from Fisher's family/supporters. See here:
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| f South Korean jails are anything like the movie Midnight Express then we need to get Andre Fisher out of there as soon as possible. |
They don't know what the conditions of the prisons here are yet they're already painting the worst picture possible.
More malarkey from the same link:
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| As concerned citizens we have a right to know why one of our soldiers is sitting in a foreign prison for two years for allegedly stealing $88. We also have the right to know if Fisher was afforded proper representation. Bob Fisher, states �My son told me the commander saw the video and told him you�re guilty� and handed him over to the South Koreans.�. |
They do know why he's incarcerated in a foreign country: he was convicted of robbery and damage to public property. As another poster explained, there's a bit of difference between theft and robbery here. The former is taking something that doesn't belong to you, while the latter is taking something that doesn't belong to you with the use of force or threatening the use of force.
And he was afforded proper representation. In addition to that, he's had a US military legal observer at every stage of the incident. Fisher's accounting of how he got turned over to the Koran civil authorities is pure hokum. Check the links I've already provided for a more accurate and more likely scenario.
The parents/supporters talking about the "laughable" sentences handed down in Korean courts are glossing over a few facts that are inconvenient for their campaign. For one thing, the courts are not handing down sentences such as they've described like those sentences are dime store candies. For another, the Korean public was quite upset and vocal about the cases where such lenient sentences were issued.
Want more facts? The US military and the US Embassy are prohibited from telling the parents exactly what's going on with him without his express request. Want another fact? White servicemembers have been locked up in Korean prison for violating Korean law also. Want another fact? Korean-American servicemembers have had that happen to them too.
I don't see any injustice here. I see someone who screwed up overseas but big and is now flailing around hoping that a big ruckus back home will have an effect on his legal case overseas. It won't.
By the way, one of my classmates back at UC-Davis was a new enlistee in the Army National Guard. She told me and one of my friends in all serious, "One thing I'm happy about is that no matter where I get sent overseas, I cannot be prosecuted by the foreign courts." My friend, who happens to be an Air Force veteran who's been stationed overseas, and I had a big laugh then explained the facts to her. Who knows? Maybe she ignored that and did something as stupid as the Korean court says Fisher has done. Some people just need a big slap of Reality in the face for them to understand some matters are serious. |
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julian_w
Joined: 08 Sep 2003
Location: Somewhere beyond Middle Peak Hotel, north of Middle Earth, and well away from the Middle of the Road
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:06 am Post subject: |
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Andre Michael Fisher is currently residing in Seoul Prison (Seoul Guchiweon) and welcomes visitors on Wednesdays and Thursdays.
Officially, visitors are welcome between 9am and 4pm, not including 11.30 - 1pm for lunch break. Unofficially, his minders would prefer it if you were there and registered your visit by 2pm. Visits are for a maximum of 15 minutes.
He is allowed a maximum of one visit per day. So as to avoid wasting the time of anyone else thinking of going on the same day, i suggest if you're interested in going, you could either send a PM to his sister on the facebook page listed in the original post above, or PM me and i'll send you her email address, or, just let us know here. That way, if anyone else is going too, maybe you can negotiate a time to meet there and go in together (and maybe even share transport), or, reschedule for another day.
If you'd like to take or post him anything, he says he enjoys ESPN Sports magazine. I didn't get to ask him which back issues he currently has. I'll ask his friend to find out, so anyone who wants to work on filling in the gaps can contribute that way.
If travelling by subway from Seoul, take line #4 to Indeogwon [인덕원] and take exits #2, or #s 4, 5, 6, or 7. Take a taxi and tell the driver 'Seoul Guchiwon, yoh!' [서울 구지원, 요!]. This should cost somewhere between flagfall and w3,000 at most.
You will need your ARC card ID, or citizen's card if you're a local national. You will also need to define your relationship to Andre.
When you go in the front door, turn left, and when you see the row of people sitting at the reception desk, go the the one on the far right. Mr. Yoo Byung Uk speaks adequately good English, and like all staff there, is personable and friendly, and will help you out. |
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