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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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 Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| 'Why is Korean language so difficult to remember?' sounds to me like something someone whose first language is Korean would say. No article to indicate that you are specifying a subset of the set of all languages; and the phrase 'Korean language' itself is a direct analogue of '한국어' presumably because you've never grasped the fact that languages in English have a one-word label, in this case simply 'Korean'. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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I must admit, I've found the opposite. On many occasion I've uttered something completely distinct in Korean, only for my audience to be sincerely baffled.
Then when they finally get it from sign language, and repeat for my edification, it sounds precisely as I said it. It's like a damn sport with them.
I suppose with so few letters in their alphabet, a great emphasis is placed on inflection or whatever.
Throws a bucket of cold water over any quest to learn their language, though. |
That is what I am saying.
"I've uttered something completely distinct in Korean"
With Chinese, they might use a different word or group of words to convey the same meaning (like double word synonyms). For example, in Japanese they say "finished" basically when they are done with class. The Chinese will say something like "down class". I am not sure exactly what Koreans say, but I assume it's closer to "finished".
"it sounds precisely as I said it"
Right, we can say the sentence correctly, but with Chinese they will use different words. The frustration comes if you say, "I bought a tiny bag of ___." They don't understand the size. You can do hand gestures and they will continue to ask, "What does tiny mean?". You could even have a book with "tiny" under the word "small" as a header with gigantic under "big" and they still don't understand what tiny means. Not even the direction. You have to show them the Chinese characters, and then they can take it as a new word. They don't see it on a scale of small to big. It's a unique new word.
"a great emphasis is placed on inflection or whatever."
Right, so you could write it and there wouldn't be a problem, but if you try to say it then it's much harder. The writing is easier. |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think Korean is any more difficult to remember than most languages. It is certainly not ranked among the hardest languages by those of us that speak Japanese. The grammar structure is similar so I find Korean not at all hard to get my head around despite never studying it except by myself.
Japanese is not a difficult language. Honestly, the only thing that makes it difficult is the Chinese letters called kanji as you need around a thousand (and each has different meanings) to read newspapers correctly etc. But you can also read signs easily without a lot of kanji. Korean grammar structure is similar to Japanese.
Ask yourselves this question: How many of us have had Korean language instruction or Korean parents teaching us Korean since we were in elementary school or middle school at the latest? The answer tells you why native English teachers don't speak Korean well or at all. For people who have had so much exposure to the English language, most Koreans understand it at a level that is much lower than should be.
I taught myself Korean and I can do daily things well with no problems, travel around, communicate opinions etc. The big setback for many foreigners is that Korean frankly sounds ugly to listen to and speak. I think it sounds very unattractive especially with the whining tone that accompanies much of it. That's a clue right there why English teachers aren't very interested in learning it. Personally I find that limits my interest in learning more.
I also am limited as are many foreigners who can speak Korean to an extent by the narrowness of Korean perceptions of what we are doing when we speak Korean. My accent is good according to my Korean friends but everywhere I go Koreans refuse to listen to what I am saying and then attribute it to the 'fact' that I don't really speak Korean. I can understand the worst broken English in Korea so most Koreans should be able to understand their language when it is spoken by a foreigner with a reasonably accurate understanding of pronunciation.
We are also confronted by the relatively limited vocabulary of Korean. There are so many words that have multiple meanings, and a lack of diversity in vocabulary. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| The big setback for many foreigners is that Korean frankly sounds ugly to listen to and speak. |
That's rather subjective. I know with Japanese, it took me 2.5 years before I was in class and heard the Japanese teacher say something and it clicked. Since then, I have been able to "wait it out", meaning it's not a sense of ugliness but rather unfamiliarity which you ironically talked about. We simply aren't accustomed to listening to and speaking Korean. I found Korean music a lot better to listen to than Japanese, especially singing. The way they can shave off vowel endings here and there, Japanese don't do that.
| Quote: |
| My accent is good according to my Korean friends but everywhere I go Koreans refuse to listen to what I am saying |
This is a big problem with going to a foreign country and learning their language. Imagine a German with a thick accent coming up to you asking you for directions. I enjoy all the Alban Berg atonal stuff to Rammstein "Amerika" songs, but it's kind of hard to take in what someone says when it's accompanied by an unfamiliar accent. Even going to England, I had to get used to the British accent. It took two weeks to understand a guy from Manchester. And he was saying words I already knew!! 2 years later, he recognized me on the train and said something. I instantly knew who it was and what he said.
So, again, this is a matter of unfamiliarity. What I do is have something written in the language I am trying to speak. I show them it first, and while I am showing it to them I try saying it. Instead of being offended or confused, they know what I am trying to say and can hear me trying to say it. It starts things on the right foot, and then you can try to improvise after that. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
| I am not sure exactly what Koreans say, but I assume it's closer to "finished". |
In Korea they don't have to say. They've already made a long line to the door, even though I'm still at the board teaching them. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:17 am Post subject: |
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There, fixed the title for ya.
Happy now? |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| It takes practice. I kept forgetting. But now it's easier to remember words. Also many waygooks seem to neglect that whole memorizing step. You can't just go through a lesson and think you know it. You actually have to memorize vocabulary words. Then the sentences will come easier as time goes on. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:42 am Post subject: |
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That's why I think a lot of Korean language course books fall short.
They don't have enough practical exercises that learners can practise on their own.
I'm thinking of something similar to "Side by Side" , with exercises that work on 1 grammatical structure and a wide variety of vocabulary.
Book 1 of the Seoul National University series was OK, but book 2 and up were no use at all, at least for me.
The tutors I had seemed to be interested in teaching me about forming my hangul letters to perfection, or they thought I should be able to handle
huge, drawn-out compound sentences. Not many would do anything useful.
I had a hard time finding someone who would focus on simple sentence structures and help me practice them.
The best luck I had was a book called "English 30 30" which is for people learning English. I tried to work on this with a tutor and she refused to work on the sentences but wanted to work on the introductory stories for each chapter. most of the vocabulary and structures in those parts were way beyond my level.
How did you work on memorizing? I tried doing that, but I couldn't stay focused. I'd usually fall asleep after about 5 mins. |
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Chet Wautlands
Joined: 11 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
That's why I think a lot of Korean language course books fall short.
They don't have enough practical exercises that learners can practise on their own.
I'm thinking of something similar to "Side by Side" , with exercises that work on 1 grammatical structure and a wide variety of vocabulary.
Book 1 of the Seoul National University series was OK, but book 2 and up were no use at all, at least for me.
The tutors I had seemed to be interested in teaching me about forming my hangul letters to perfection, or they thought I should be able to handle
huge, drawn-out compound sentences. Not many would do anything useful.
I had a hard time finding someone who would focus on simple sentence structures and help me practice them.
The best luck I had was a book called "English 30 30" which is for people learning English. I tried to work on this with a tutor and she refused to work on the sentences but wanted to work on the introductory stories for each chapter. most of the vocabulary and structures in those parts were way beyond my level.
How did you work on memorizing? I tried doing that, but I couldn't stay focused. I'd usually fall asleep after about 5 mins. |
There's no great secret to learning Korean.
Figure out the things you need to say... memorize them. These include...
"Where's the bathroom?" "Excuse me?" "How much is this?" "What is this?" "This is a ....." "I'm hungry"
After that, learn to substitute words. "Where's the supermarket?" "Are you hungry?" "How much is that?"
The basics of Korean, and I mean the absolute basics, are easy for anyone who puts in the effort.
"I'm sleepy." 나는 졸려요. "I'm always sleepy." 나는 항상 졸려요.
"You're sleepy." 너는 졸려요. "Are you sleepy?" 너는 졸려요?
After three months of light (at MOST an hour a day) you should be able to make sentences like "I ride the bus, but I never take a taxi."
"The dog is good and the cat is good too." "The crazy man ate the pizza." "I can dance. Can you dance?"
Start mixing and matching and making simple sentences. Do this a lot. Some of the sentences I wrote above are quite awkward sounding, but you can't know that at first and it doesn't matter. You figure that out later. The important thing is to start making sentences...
After you have the basics down, just keep learning what you need to say. The things you need to say will become less and less, and eventually you start learning things that you want to say. After a while, that too becomes less important and then you start the daunting task of learning everything else. This takes the rest of your life and you never finish it.
Dispel the notion that Korean is hard. It's not a useful idea. Korean may be harder for an English speaker than Spanish, but you can't use Spanish in Korea.
Rather think that Korean is a skill that one spends their life acquiring. No one would fault you for learning Taekwondo while you are in Korea, but if you have never done a martial art, becoming proficient at Taekwondo will take you years! You will probably never become an expert, but some day you'll be able to kick over your head, and that's pretty cool. Same goes for Korean. No matter how much you study, the odds of you ever speaking Korean perfectly are not in your favor. But you can get pretty damn good. |
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joelove
Joined: 12 May 2011
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
I also am limited as are many foreigners who can speak Korean to an extent by the narrowness of Korean perceptions of what we are doing when we speak Korean. My accent is good according to my Korean friends but everywhere I go Koreans refuse to listen to what I am saying and then attribute it to the 'fact' that I don't really speak Korean. I can understand the worst broken English in Korea so most Koreans should be able to understand their language when it is spoken by a foreigner with a reasonably accurate understanding of pronunciation.
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I liked your post, just wanted to respond to this part. You are constantly hearing Koreans use poor English, so you get good at understanding it. This may change if you go to another country though and cannot understand the poor English with a different accent.
I suspect most people are not really used to hearing their native language spoken by non-native speakers, and that most people live in fluent land almost all the time except maybe when studying a foreign language. English speakers probably hear their language butchered more often than anyone else though I reckon, seeing how many non-native speakers there are.
In Asia I've found the local mind often just tunes out anything a foreigner says if it doesn't come out well or isn't something easy like hello and thank you. Many just assume you are speaking English when you are not. It's a kind of bias I guess. Some probably feel embarrassed with their poor English or even just trying to communicate with a foreigner. Some are frustrated you don't speak their language well. Most have never taught a foreigner a single word of their language.
I expect pretty much everyone where I am to speak only Chinese. I had that idea in Korea too, though there is more English there. A guy one day said something and I had no idea what he said. Later it dawned on me he said "Eck suh coo juh me" (excuse me). I just thought it was some Korean I didn't know. In the classroom I likely would have understood it immediately though.
All probably obvious stuff and I reckon a fair bit of psychology is involved with many Asian-foreigner interactions as well. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:24 am Post subject: |
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Chet, thanks for your input. I'm not in Korea anymore and I don't know if I'll ever go back.
I am still interested in some things though.
I was at that stage you described at about mid-way through my first year.
What I found though was that trying to move on past that stage was difficult to say the least.
Not having the time or energy to study full-time (and having to speak English all day to students) did not help me either.
By the second year I was losing interest in learning, and was forgetting things I had learned. I started taking Saturday classes but found that they were more of a social gathering than a class per se.
I think if I had devoted all my time to study for a few months things would have been different.
I tried different books, different teachers, tried writing sentences and trying to memorize them.
The best thing that did work for me was those LSK videos on youtube.
(the old series)
Anyway, thanks everyone for your responses. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| joelove wrote: |
| A guy one day said something and I had no idea what he said. Later it dawned on me he said "Eck suh coo juh me" (excuse me). I just thought it was some Korean I didn't know. |
Oh, what a shame that had to happen to you! I hate that happening to me, it bugs no end. If only one could relive it; I'd pay top dollar to relive and set things straight.
One great thing about Korea is there is little pressure to learn their insular language. That would really put a cork in any more expats going there, the final straw. It's as if Koreans instinctively know that's a no-go zone.
Funny, b/c most often nationalists love anyone to give their tongue a shot. |
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cdninkorea
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| shifty wrote: |
One great thing about Korea is there is little pressure to learn their insular language. That would really put a cork in any more expats going there, the final straw. It's as if Koreans instinctively know that's a no-go zone.
Funny, b/c most often nationalists love anyone to give their tongue a shot. |
There's little pressure but my experience has been that Koreans like non-Koreans learning their language. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:25 am Post subject: |
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I read this in a book:
�Koreans do not expect foreigners in their country to even attempt to learn their language. The simple fact of the matter is that is extremely rare for a Westerner to learn Korean, and so the vast majority of Koreans have never once in their lives had the experience of speaking Korean with a foreigner. While some Koreans are flattered by the interest that is thus shown in their culture, most are clearly initially confused by and uncomfortable with the experience.�
Also, this:
�Korea is still a remarkably homogeneous society, and Koreans are aware that their common language is the major component of the glue that binds them together and sets them apart from others. It is thus something that they tend, consciously or unconsciously, to guard from others.� |
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Chet Wautlands
Joined: 11 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:05 am Post subject: |
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If you guys are looking for inspiration, head to www.koreanchamp.com
That guy has become excellent (I'd say he fluent, but he doesn't) in Korean. It's taken 8 years, thus far. He mentioned on a recent podcast that he would study 6 hours a day, compared to the regular 2 hours most students study.
So, it's possible!
8 years sounds about right, too. |
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