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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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I wish I had more energy = regret about a present situation
I wish I had had more energy = regret about a past situation
I wish I would have more energy = wrong
I wish I would have had more energy = wrong |
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Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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1. The sentence is grammatical with the substitution test.
2. I wish - I would have more energy - passes the constituency test.
3. The morphemes are fine.
It might not be the grammar I use but it's not ungrammatical, and you can't say it's wrong. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Malislamusrex wrote: |
1. The sentence is grammatical with the substitution test.
2. I wish - I would have more energy - passes the constituency test.
3. The morphemes are fine.
It might not be the grammar I use but it's not ungrammatical, and you can't say it's wrong. |
Is this a prescriptive analysis?
Which substitution and constituency tests are you applying?
The morphemes are fine...in and of themselves...but certainly not together.
The lexical morphemes also need to be collocatively combined in such a way as to run accordant with currently acceptable grammatical production.
Present
I wish I would have more energy = I wish I had more energy.
However, if you are suggesting that 'would' is being used as a modality to express a future want...then the sentence itself is unclear...and wish would need to be changed to hope.
These are subtle differences, but they are important if you are discussing prescriptive analysis.
Future?
I wish I would have more energy. = I hope I have more energy. (I hope I will have more energy.)
I hope this is useful.
I hope this will be useful. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Malislamusrex wrote: |
1. The sentence is grammatical with the substitution test.
2. I wish - I would have more energy - passes the constituency test.
3. The morphemes are fine.
It might not be the grammar I use but it's not ungrammatical, and you can't say it's wrong. |
"I wish I would have energy". He didn't write "I wish I would have more energy". That might be acceptable, but still sounds awkward to me.
Had he added the word more, I might let it slide. How can I explain why it's wrong? And we can't even seem to agree with each other and we're teaching English. English is a huge mess. I read a lot of grammar, and it still seems like a mess. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Malislamusrex wrote: |
1. The sentence is grammatical with the substitution test.
2. I wish - I would have more energy - passes the constituency test.
3. The morphemes are fine.
It might not be the grammar I use but it's not ungrammatical, and you can't say it's wrong. |
Is this a prescriptive analysis?
Which substitution and constituency tests are you applying?
The morphemes are fine...in and of themselves...but certainly not together.
The lexical morphemes also need to be collocatively combined in such a way as to run accordant with currently acceptable grammatical production.
Present
I wish I would have more energy = I wish I had more energy.
However, if you are suggesting that 'would' is being used as a modality to express a future want...then the sentence itself is unclear...and wish would need to be changed to hope.
These are subtle differences, but they are important if you are discussing prescriptive analysis.
Future?
I wish I would have more energy. = I hope I have more energy. (I hope I will have more energy.)
I hope this is useful.
I hope this will be useful. |
As far as would being used to refer to the future, I believe it can depending on the context. If I asked you, if it it's the year 2020, would you still be a good person? The person could say: "I hope I would still be a good person, I would I would be a good person". However, wish seems awkward in this case to refer to the future. That's my take. |
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metalhead
Joined: 18 May 2010
Location: Toilet
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| And we can't even seem to agree with each other and we're teaching English. English is a huge mess. I read a lot of grammar, and it still seems like a mess. |
It IS a mess - English is a Germanic language that uses Latin grammar rules, hence all the rules that don't make sense/aren't really applicable. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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I think this is just an American usage, as a variant of the standard conditional tense: Americans sometimes use 'would have' instead of 'had'.
Standard usage: "If I had seen you, I would have said hello".
American variant: "If I would have seen you, I would have said hello".
It seems messy to me because you're repeating 'would have' but I don't have a problem with it.
Is there any difference in meaning between the 2 forms? People who actually talk that way might be able to clarify. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
I think this is just an American usage, as a variant of the standard conditional tense: Americans sometimes use 'would have' instead of 'had'.
Standard usage: "If I had seen you, I would have said hello".
American variant: "If I would have seen you, I would have said hello".
It seems messy to me because you're repeating 'would have' but I don't have a problem with it.
Is there any difference in meaning between the 2 forms? People who actually talk that way might be able to clarify. |
Yes, I'm an America who would use the word would to mean the future, but that's rather common. I was only repeating that because someone brought up something that doesn't seem to relate to what the student wrote.
He wrote:
I wish I would have energy.
This is connect with unreal conditionals.
I can understand the following: I wish I had more energy.
However, his sentence, even if it's correct somehow would sound extremely archaic. |
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Lunar Groove Gardener
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Location: 1987 Subaru
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:23 am Post subject: |
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I wish you would slow down.
I wish they would shut up.
I wish he would stop cursing.
I wish it would stop raining.
I wish you two would stop fighting.
I wish my stomach would stop hurting.
Not sure if this is completely unrelated in the hearts and minds of those
who know...
Best wishes,
LGG |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| Lunar Groove Gardener wrote: |
I wish you would slow down.
I wish they would shut up.
I wish he would stop cursing.
I wish it would stop raining.
I wish you two would stop fighting.
I wish my stomach would stop hurting.
Not sure if this is completely unrelated in the hearts and minds of those
who know...
Best wishes,
LGG |
These examples include phrasal verbs. They're acceptable. I've seen them as acceptable, but I haven't seen this accepted: "I wish I would have energy".
Here, you have an auxiliary verb before the noun, the direct object.
Can you say "I wish I would have more energy"? It seems awkward to me. I would say "I wish I had more energy". I don't feel you can use with the auxiliary that way, but it's fine with the phrasal verbs.
I could say "I wish I had more confidence". However, saying "I wish I would have confidence", sounds rather odd to me. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I wish you would slow down.
I wish they would shut up.
I wish he would stop cursing.
I wish it would stop raining.
I wish you two would stop fighting.
I wish my stomach would stop hurting.
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As I tried to point out before. Wish + would is quite commonly used for the function of complaining about something as in the examples you provided. However in the context of having more energy it's not really applicable. You could complain about your own habits I suppose e.g 'I wish I would learn from my mistakes.' but complaining about not having something is a different function. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
I wish you would slow down.
I wish they would shut up.
I wish he would stop cursing.
I wish it would stop raining.
I wish you two would stop fighting.
I wish my stomach would stop hurting.
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As I tried to point out before. Wish + would is quite commonly used for the function of complaining about something as in the examples you provided. However in the context of having more energy it's not really applicable. You could complain about your own habits I suppose e.g 'I wish I would learn from my mistakes.' but complaining about not having something is a different function. |
I am still not sure if what the student wrote was wrong or right. I can only say it sounds wrong to me. I found this on a site:
I wish I would have...
One of the common "errors" that I've been noticing recently is the use of "I wish I would have" (and similar constructions) for "I wish I had" (and similar constructions). Of course in reality there's nothing wrong with this construction; it's simply not the proscriptive one. My guess is that it's not even the less common construction.
A quick check on google gives the following results:
�"I wish I would have" - 5,080,000
�"I wish I had" - 19,900,000
Okay, so the nonstandard construction is indeed less common, but only by about 4:1. And five million hits is enough to question why people use this construction. Saying "that's how they learned it" isn't explanatory, because this just shifts the question back a generation, to why their parents said it that way, ad infinitum. My bet would be on the desire for a different construction marking the protasis of a conditional clause (the protasis is "if" clause of a conditional construction; the apodosis is the "then" clause). While language does tend to eschew redundancy, there are so many cases of redundancy in language(s) that this is clearly a constraint which is readily violated. The phrasing "I wish I had gone to the store" is perhaps a bit puzzling if we take out the conditionality. Why "I had gone to the store"? Why not "I have gone to the store"? After all, it's a wish about the present situation. This may be why some people prefer "I wish I would have gone to the store", because it's transparent. "I would have gone to the store" makes more sense out of the subordinate context, and simultaneously shows the conditional/irrealis nature of the wish in a way "I wish I had gone to the store" does not.
http://linguistlessons.blogspot.com/2009/01/i-wish-i-would-have.html
My note:
Isn't a person also complaining if he says "I wish I would have energy" just as he would be saying "I wish I would learn from my mistakes". With I wish I would have energy seems to be missing a past participle after the auxiliary. Would the addition of the word the comparative more make it grammatical? |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Okay, so the nonstandard construction is indeed less common, but only by about 4:1. And five million hits is enough to question why people use this construction. |
The non standard construction used in that survey is not comparable to the example sentence....repeat...not the same...as was already pointed out on the first page by T.J.
In the OP...the sentence uses have as possessive - not the perfect aspect used in the survey.
I wish I would have more energy. (have - possessive)
I wish I would have taken her to a movie instead of the ball game.(have- perfect aspect- descriptive of informal American English.)
| Quote: |
| How can I explain why it's wrong? |
You can explain that it is ungrammatical because it is unclear.
Is it referring to present or future?
If present:
I wish I had (more) energy. (The determiner 'more' makes no difference to the grammaticality of the sentence.)
If future:
I hope I have (more) energy.
In the OP it was stated it was for present...it seems pretty obvious that the answer should be for the present.
This really isn't all that debatable.
What is possibly debatable is this one.
I wish I would have had more energy.
Ed states that it is wrong. (and Ed knows his grammar... a grammar guru so to say)
I wouldn't say that it is wrong for the same reasons stated earlier about drinking...I get the feeling this is merely a descriptive American usage.
I would say that it is not prescriptively grammatical.
I wish I had had more energy. (Prescriptively correct)
I wish I would have had more energy. (Descriptively correct - depending on education and region.) |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:55 am Post subject: |
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Example sentences with 'wish' and the main verb 'slow down':
1. I wish you had slowed down = a wish to alter a past event
2. I wish you slowed down (when you took sharp corners) = a wish to change a habitual situation; does not make sense unless in the habitual present time frame
3. I wish you would slow down = a wish for someone to make a choice in the immediate future, 'would' is the futureal/volitional 'will' in the unreal 'past' tense form that the verb 'wish' requires
4. I wish you would have slowed down = a wish that you had made the choice to slow down during a past event. The pattern is the same as 'I wish you could have seen that coming' but using 'would' so we're talking about choice. In this case, it's not much different from type 1, since it doesn't make much difference whether we talk about something you might have chosen to do, but didn't, or something you might have actually done, but didn't
Also,
5. I wish you slow down = ungrammatical; the verb 'wish' requires a change in verb conjugation to reflect an unreal framing
And, by the way,
6. I wish you slowed! = casting the magic spell 'slow', 'slowed' here being a participial adjective. An external force slows you for an undefined period of time
7. I wish you slow! = casting the magic spell 'slow', but this time whether the effect is due to external force or an alteration of your essential nature, and for how long the effect will remain, are both unclear. (Obviously, in types 6 and 7 we are no longer talking about conjugations of the verb 'slow down')
The example sentence from the OP:
'I wish I would have more energy' could be interpreted as fitting either type 2 or type 3.
It can't be type 4, because 'have' is the main verb in the student's sentence.
If it's intended as type 2, then the student simply means 'I wish I had more energy' referring to his/her habitual state. He/she has simply replaced 'had' with 'would have' either due to a confused recollection of the unreal conditional, or from having seen examples of type 4, fairly common in American usage. (Or perhaps just from plain ignorance!  )
If it's intended as type 3, then the student appears to be construeing the act of having energy as something that can be willed; and hence also referring to his- or her-self as if he or she were someone else, i.e. as if the choice were not already his or hers to be made at the present moment.
The type 4 sentence pattern
Is the example sentence I gave for number 4 above just nonstandard grammar like 'If I would have seen you coming, I would have prepared a surprise for you', where 'would have' after 'if' is just a substitute for 'had'? Or could it actually fit into the standard pattern?
The more I think about this, the more confused I get, so I'm going to leave this for now.
| Quote: |
| Saying "that's how they learned it" isn't explanatory, because this just shifts the question back a generation, to why their parents said it that way, ad infinitum. My bet would be on the desire for a different construction marking the protasis of a conditional clause (the protasis is "if" clause of a conditional construction; the apodosis is the "then" clause). |
Standard usage already has a different construction marking the protasis. The nonstandard usage has the same construction for both clauses! So my guess as to how the nonstandard usage arose would be simply confusion between the protasis and apodosis clauses, plus the fact that this is an area of grammar in a changing and pretty confusing state.
For example, someone earlier quoted a criminal saying "I wish I would have come home one day and found her dead". I can imagine a Brit from my grandparents' generation saying "I wish I might have come home one day and found her dead" (cf "I wish I might come home one day and find her dead"). 'Might have' seems more logical to me than 'would have' in this case, because it's not something the will can affect, and there's a difference between that and "I wish I had come home one day and found her dead"; you're wishing not that it had happened but that it had been possible or allowable.
Hope this is making sense. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:04 am Post subject: |
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[quote="The Cosmic Hum"]
| Quote: |
| Okay, so the nonstandard construction is indeed less common, but only by about 4:1. And five million hits is enough to question why people use this construction. |
The non standard construction used in that survey is not comparable to the example sentence....repeat...not the same...as was already pointed out on the first page by T.J.
| Quote: |
In the OP...the sentence uses have as possessive - not the perfect aspect used in the survey.
I wish I would have more energy. (have - possessive)
I wish I would have taken her to a movie instead of the ball game.(have- perfect aspect- descriptive of informal American English.) |
You're saying that have in this case is possessive, and it is ungrammatical because it's hard to know if it refers to the past or present. When we're speaking of the present when it comes to wishes, we use the past tense.
"I wish I ate more chicken instead of beef" (Chic Filet)
| Quote: |
What is possibly debatable is this one.
I wish I would have had more energy.
Ed states that it is wrong. (and Ed knows his grammar... a grammar guru so to say)
I wouldn't say that it is wrong for the same reasons stated earlier about drinking...I get the feeling this is merely a descriptive American usage.
I would say that it is not prescriptively grammatical.
I wish I had had more energy. (Prescriptively correct)
I wish I would have had more energy. (Descriptively correct - depending on education and region.) |
It appears you're correct, but what is descripitively correct is so common. That's why I thought it was correct.
Capitalization of Academic Degrees
How to Reference Books and Articles in Text �
If I Would Have� vs. If I Had�
http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/verbs/if-i-would-have-vs-if-i-had/
Reprinted with permission by Editor Laura Lawless, http://www.elearnenglishlanguage.com/.
When talking about something that didn�t happen in the past, many English speakers use the conditional perfect (if I would have done) when they should be using the past perfect (if I had done).
For example, you find out that your brother saw a movie yesterday. You would have liked to see it too, but you hadn�t known he was going. To express this, you can use an if � then clause. The correct way to say this is with the past perfect in the �if� clause, and the conditional perfect in the �then� clause:
Correct: If I had known that you were going to the movies, [then] I would have gone too.
The conditional perfect can only go in the �then� clause � it is grammatically incorrect to use the conditional perfect in the �if� clause:
Incorrect: If I would have known that you were going to the movies, I would have gone too.
More examples:
Correct: If I had gotten paid, we could have traveled together.
Incorrect: If I would have gotten paid, we could have traveled together.
Correct: If you had asked me, I could have helped you.
Incorrect: If you would have asked me, I could have helped you.
The same mistake occurs with the verb �wish.� You can�t use the conditional perfect when wishing something had happened; you again need the past perfect.
Correct: I wish I had known.
Incorrect: I wish I would have known.
Correct: I wish you had told me.
Incorrect: I wish you would have told me.
Correct: We wish they had been honest.
Incorrect: We wish they would have been honest.
Pop Quiz
Choose A or B.
1.A. If I would have known you were sick, I could have brought you some meals.
1.B. If I had known you were sick, I could have brought you some meals.
2.A. If you had explained the objective, I could have completed the assignment sooner.
2.B. If you would have explained the objective, I could have completed the assignment sooner.
3.A. I wish it would have gone differently.
3.B. I wish it had gone differently.
4.A. We wish the team had scored more goals.
4.B. We wish the team would have scored more goals.
Answers
1.B.
2.A.
3.B. |
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