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own_king
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Location: here
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 Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Yeah Koreans seem to think that foreigners should have some misguided loyalty to the hogwan they work for. If things are bad then the staff should have to work harder, because the company is ALL. Just like in Japan. Your boss is like god there. I think the Korean work wonjongnym or whatever it is actually translates into "owner". Remember - nothing is more important than work. . . Right?  |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| own_king wrote: |
| Yeah Koreans seem to think that foreigners should have some misguided loyalty to the hogwan they work for. If things are bad then the staff should have to work harder, because the company is ALL. Just like in Japan. Your boss is like god there. I think the Korean work wonjongnym or whatever it is actually translates into "owner". Remember - nothing is more important than work. . . Right? |
So you are suggesting that they just relax and let their jobs go down the tube? When things are bad (and the person is not working full contract hours) what is the rational for not working harder and actually fullfilling the contract? We scream bloody murder when the wonjangnim violates the contract, but we seem to think we don't have to uphold our end of the deal. |
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jazblanc77
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Next time you sign a contract, I would recommend you make sure that there is something in there defining what a 'teaching hour is'. As well, most hogwans, in my experience, say that they will reimburse the flight in full upon arrival but what they really mean is that they will give you half of your arriving flight upon arrival (sometimes all), the other half coming at your 6 month point, and then your return, in full, at the end of your contract. By the way, ask for receipts when they pay you. I got screwed over last year on this point as my employer claimed he paid everything in full when I arrived, though, he only paid half. He refused to show me the withdrawal of that sum in his bank book and I didn't have a receipt. I was SOL! If you keep this policy for all pay that comes to you, you will be able to make sure that you got everything that is owed to you. |
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phaedrus
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: I'm comin' to get ya.
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| phaedrus wrote: |
| About the hours, if your boss wants to do this, just put in less effort. The perfect solution. When will those fools realize stupid decisions make unhappy teachers? |
Are you saying it is somehow in bad taste that he has his employees actually doing closer to the workload they agreed to do and are being paid for?
I just ask because at my first job I signed for 30 hours a week but only did about 15 hours a week of teaching. A couple months later this was bumped to 22 hours a week. Should I have screamed bloody murder? I ask because I enjoy free money. |
It's not a very politic way of doing things. Although it is "technically" within the contract, it reeks of not thinking about the employees.
What it sounds like is a random thought about how to get more work out of employees. For nine months (or more) it was done a certain way, and now they are changing it.
I am sure the boss never actually said "Hey, although your contract says 120 teaching hours I'm going to be nice and offer you a ten minute break between classes and not count this against your hours."
The ten minute break is generally a fact of life. It is impossible for a class of kids to gather and leave and another class to arrive and settle without a break. Should the teacher be punished for this? I'm not sure about you, but I never actually sat down for more than a minute or two during my "break". New books, bathroom, water. I would rather have no break and do this during class time.
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| workload they agreed to do and are being paid for? |
Workload, agree, pay. These have strange meanings to the authoritarian hagwon boss. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| phaedrus wrote: |
| It's not a very politic way of doing things. Although it is "technically" within the contract, it reeks of not thinking about the employees. |
You enjoy free money too? It does appear that it is going to be a difficult quest to find someone who does not enjoy being paid for work not done. And when that free money is taken away, we all shed a tear.
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| What it sounds like is a random thought about how to get more work out of employees. For nine months (or more) it was done a certain way, and now they are changing it. |
Yes, it's more work. However, it's not really "more work" in the sense of above and beyond what was agreed to, but rather moving up closer to what was agreed to.
I would wager that the boss never actually said "Hey, although your contract says 120 teaching hours I'm going to be nice and offer you a ten minute break between classes and count it against your hours. Free money for everyone!"
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| The ten minute break is generally a fact of life. It is impossible for a class of kids to gather and leave and another class to arrive and settle without a break. Should the teacher be punished for this? I'm not sure about you, but I never actually sat down for more than a minute or two during my "break". New books, bathroom, water. I would rather have no break and do this during class time. |
Irrelevant. The contract usually clearly states that a person is on salary, and in exchange for this salary they are expected to teach X number of hours per month (in this case, 120 hours). End of story. Things like breaks between the classes, prep work, etc, are all being paid for as part of the salary. It's just that the magic number being counted is the classroom hours. There is no "punishment" that you speak of.
An hour is 60 minutes. End of story. Sure, some places are nice and credit 50 minutes as an hour, others simply say an hour is 60 minutes. |
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phaedrus
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: I'm comin' to get ya.
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| It's just that the magic number being counted is the classroom hours. |
| EFL-LAW Guy (Korea Bridge Forums) wrote: |
If the time spent is done at the employer's insistence or direction, then it counts for hours worked. Many contracts (no surprise) say this time is not paid. Just another attempt by some school owners to get away with contract murder.
But the only real practical way around this in this 'land of contract lawlessness' is to have the written contract clearly spell this out before you start the contract |
It is magic.
Lesson to be learned: Teachers salaries should be higher and contracts should be better written to reflect actual effort put in by teacher during the day.
The legality of the hours as stated by the OP is correct. They must do what the employer says as in the contract. Should hagwon bosses wonder why teachers quit or do poor work? After all the contract only says "teach" and makes no reference to how hard you should teach. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: Help! My boss is doing funny stuff... |
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| rowdie3 wrote: |
Hi there,
but she is still going to have the ten minute breaks. J |
Mr. phaedrus. let me refer you to this quote above. The breaks are still there. Not quite sure what you mean in your first post.
As for "teachers salaries should be higher.." Does that include those "teachers" who spend much of their time playing Bingo or Hangman.
For a thirty hour work week and for requiring no formal qualifications (other than a degree and being a native speaker) 2 Million won is not that bad. Of course for those of us who are used to making more, it is low, but if you are willing to put in extra time and effort, you can easily make more. For example you could work two jobs and then there is always the easy (and illegal) way out of doing privates. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| phaedrus wrote: |
| Should hagwon bosses wonder why teachers quit or do poor work? After all the contract only says "teach" and makes no reference to how hard you should teach. |
Most people who come here are adults. Therefore they should be able to understand that when you do a job, you are usually expected to work to the best of your ability.
And obviously it is implied that you will work to the best of your ability. If you had a job back in the West and got fired for doing a poor job and not working hard, would you tell them "Well the contract didn't say I had to work hard." You'd be laughed out of the office.
This is a really weak argument and doesn't strengthen your request in any way that teachers should be paid more. What for, doing a poor job, because the contract didn't say "you must do a good job"? |
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phaedrus
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: I'm comin' to get ya.
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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If you read the OP carefully, it sounds like a typical hagwon boss.
They are "freaking out" over the economy, and "desperately" need the teachers to teach extra time.
Although the tacit and previously established understanding is that an hour of teaching meant a fifty minute class, the boss wants to change it over a current "fear".
There is really no defense of this tactic. Precedent would establish that the hour was indeed the fifty minute class unless the boss stated that it wasn't. Why else would the boss schedule the teacher for 120 of these "hours" per month and pay them full salary? The boss should have mentioneed this before if it wasn't what they intended. Precedent is an important thing. Now they want to change?
The putting in less effort would be a reaction to this action by the hagwon boss.
Teachers are adults, and should act that way under normal circumstances. Perhaps the teachers are young, and the boss is treating them like Korean people their age (still live at home, can't wipe their own arse, need discipline at work). In any event, the hagwon boss should treat employees like adults though. Changing precedent against the teacher heavy handedly is not the way to ask for good work. Simple. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| phaedrus wrote: |
| It is magic. |
That's not magic. It's simply that one is paid a salary in exchange for work. "Classroom hours" are a common measuring stick. Your example would only be valid when discussion events outside of the normal classwork and support of the said classes. The contract may say "unpaid prep time", but the reality is that it's paid but some people want to count "prep time" towards "classroom hours". Free money for everyone!
EFL-Law guy is right on many things because of his efforts and material submitted to him, but is far from flawless such as in this example. At least his heart is in the right place. Though if a person was being paid an hourly wage and the school said they must be on-site above and beyond the hourly wage doing work for the school, then we could revisit this position.
| Quote: |
| Lesson to be learned: Teachers salaries should be higher and contracts should be better written to reflect actual effort put in by teacher during the day. |
Lots of people here do make much more. It comes down to how much work you want to put into it, how large your classes are, and how willing you are to do above "the expected minimum" you cite. I rock the peep show and I get paid a lot more for it. So do many others.
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| The legality of the hours as stated by the OP is correct. They must do what the employer says as in the contract. Should hagwon bosses wonder why teachers quit or do poor work? After all the contract only says "teach" and makes no reference to how hard you should teach. |
Did you just say that it's the employer's fault that if he pays the teacher what he says he should and the teacher decides that he isn't going to put much effort into the work? What colour is the sky in your world? |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| phaedrus wrote: |
| There is really no defense of this tactic. Precedent would establish that the hour was indeed the fifty minute class unless the boss stated that it wasn't. Why else would the boss schedule the teacher for 120 of these "hours" per month and pay them full salary? The boss should have mentioneed this before if it wasn't what they intended. Precedent is an important thing. Now they want to change? |
You're arguing with emotion rather than logic. The simple facts are the person agreed to teach X number of classroom hours and do the necessary supporting effort for those classroom hours in exchange for Y amount of cash. The person was working substantially less than what they agreed to work for and now they are being told that their workload is going to be pushed closer to what they agreed to do.
End of story. |
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phaedrus
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: I'm comin' to get ya.
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| phaedrus wrote: |
| The legality of the hours as stated by the OP is correct. They must do what the employer says as in the contract. Should hagwon bosses wonder why teachers quit or do poor work? After all the contract only says "teach" and makes no reference to how hard you should teach. |
Did you just say that it's the employer's fault that if he pays the teacher what he says he should and the teacher decides that he isn't going to put much effort into the work? What colour is the sky in your world? |
Brown, I'm in magic Korealand. Anyway...
I'm actually saying if the employer is going to break a reasonably established precedent based on contract technicalities they should expect the teacher to get technical. The contract probably says "teaching hours" not "good teaching hours".
You are correct about getting better pay for more work, but that isn't going to happen to the OP at this place. You know that and I know that. They have to bide their time, cut their losses, and move on. Slack their way to greener pastures and leave the hagwon to its English education fantasy world.
By the way Gord, have you ever worked at one of these third-rate shoddy English factories? If you haven't you should try it out before you open your brain to the world. If you have why not use your brain and remember. |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 8:01 pm Post subject: sigh |
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Gord since when did 30 hours a week become 30 hours of only in classroom teaching time?
Should not prep time be part of your paid time?
or
should we just walk into every class and wing it?
the 10 or 5 minutes between classes is part of your working time. You are working, even if it is just refreshing mentally. Otherwise why have breaks? Just shovel the kids in back to back and let the teacher go home an hour or so earlier every day.
Does a secretary only get paid when she is answering the phone?
Does a lawyer only get paid for time in court?
Does a police officer only get paid when he is arresting people?
No NO NO 
You get paid for being at the job and doing your job. Preparation is neccesary for both the teacher and the students.
| Quote: |
| You are correct about getting better pay for more work, but that isn't going to happen to the OP at this place. You know that and I know that. They have to bide their time, cut their losses, and move on. Slack their way to greener pastures and leave the hagwon to its English education fantasy world |
Hogwans owners will continue to screw the foreign teacher as long as we have vague poorly worded contracts. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 10:19 pm Post subject: Re: sigh |
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| Grotto wrote: |
| Gord since when did 30 hours a week become 30 hours of only in classroom teaching time? |
It didn't. Which was my point.
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Should not prep time be part of your paid time?
or
should we just walk into every class and wing it? |
You are being paid for prep time. That's why it's salary.
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| the 10 or 5 minutes between classes is part of your working time. You are working, even if it is just refreshing mentally. Otherwise why have breaks? Just shovel the kids in back to back and let the teacher go home an hour or so earlier every day. |
While it may be cited as a classroom break, it's up to the school owner to decide if that is really a teachers' break.
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Does a secretary only get paid when she is answering the phone?
Does a lawyer only get paid for time in court?
Does a police officer only get paid when he is arresting people?
No NO NO |
What horrible examples to use as I can turn them to support my claims quite easily. Example, the police officer one. A police officer has many different things to do in a week. Paperwork, training, public events, attending trials, etc. Of the officers I knew back in Canada who were patrol officers they had to spend at least X number of hours on the road per week. It wasn't much, something like 35 hours every two weeks. But they also had to do the support behind that which wasn't counted towards any minimums. So in any given week they may have to attend Y number of trials, Z number of followups, AA number of who knows what, etc. all during their working hours. So technically they spent less than half their time doing the only measured event (that being on the road), everything else still had to be done based on demand.
Just like teaching here.
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| You get paid for being at the job and doing your job. Preparation is neccesary for both the teacher and the students. |
Glad to see you agree with me.
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| Hogwans owners will continue to screw the foreign teacher as long as we have vague poorly worded contracts. |
How is "we will pay you a monthly salary in exchange for you teaching 120 hours a month of class time and the supporting work involved" poorly worded? The only confusion comes from people who were expected to be paid for time not worked. |
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stalinsdad
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Location: Jeonju
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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Wonders whether he is allowed a piss?  |
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