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jondepoer
Joined: 02 May 2010
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 Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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Dig in your heels. If they did all the things you said, they also broke the law, and don't have a leg to stand on. Also, rules like defamation would never be enforced against a foreigner. Too much trouble.
Your boss is blowing smoke. Chances are, he has broken and is currently breaking multiple laws. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| but they could certainly find out who the OP is, and they could certainly BRING a case against him |
How? Anyone could collect personal info you share online, make an account, post a bad review and say it was you. Could even be an ex-girlfriend/boyfriend.
There is NO PROOF you personally did the act they accused you of. It's not like a bank transaction where you can be traced. Your word against theirs, and again they have no proof. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
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| but they could certainly find out who the OP is, and they could certainly BRING a case against him |
How? Anyone could collect personal info you share online, make an account, post a bad review and say it was you. Could even be an ex-girlfriend/boyfriend.
There is NO PROOF you personally did the act they accused you of. It's not like a bank transaction where you can be traced. Your word against theirs, and again they have no proof. |
You like that word "proof" eh? Guess what? People's lives can be messed up WITHOUT proof. They don't NEED proof to make your life difficult, if they get it into their heads to make your life difficult. They may need proof to WIN a case, but not to BRING a case -- and if they BRING a case, your life will be more difficult. Some folks are willing to fight that fight, but some folks aren't.
Keep saying "there is no proof!" I'm sure the world will treat you fairly and well. You are talking about the way the world SHOULD be, and I agree that there SHOULD be a burden of proof on the accuser...but the fact of the matter is that the world isn't the way it should be, and many times the burden of proof falls on the accused -- talk to any teacher in the US that has been accused of inappropriate behavior with students. "There's no proof!" they cry, and yet, they have no more teaching careers.
It shouldn't be that way, but it is, and since we KNOW it is, we can act to protect ourselves. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| lives can be messed up WITHOUT proof. They don't NEED proof to make your life difficult |
Then it is moot discussing the merits of the proof or lack of in court. If they could do it regardless of the review or in the absence, we all should worry or not.
You are the one who is arguing what "should" happen.
For me, it's just scaremongering. Do your best with the rest. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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The anti-defamation law has to do with FACE. Saving FACE is essentially very important here. It doesn't matter if it's true, if you make someone lose FACE and are trying to publically humiliate them, that's where you can get into trouble. If you have a specific reason that you can prove why you were speaking out, then you might be able to fight it. In other words, if your intent was not to ruin their reputation but to prevent some grand tragedy from happening, protection of others, etc - this is one way around the law. Sorry, I can't think of good examples. But I had a couple of lawyer friends who told me this. Still, don't take my word about it. Get your own legal advice.
Essentially, you were not trying to humiliate the boss, but you were trying to prevent others from going through the pain and long suffering that you went through. You wanted to spare others the great shame that you felt...bla bla bla. (Have some type of documented proof of your complaint prior though.) Also helps if you get emotional like the Koreans and break down and start crying on the stand too. (Koreans really like that. Don't think like a westerner and keep a stiff upper lip. Let the emotions fly. Again lawyer friend.)
You counter sue for him making you lose FACE (pride) by throwing you out of work, not paying you, having to beg for money, publically taunting you with a lawsuit, etc. Of course if you decide to publically list him as a bad employer, just make you have the legal council to back you up and fight it if necessary. Go though the steps outlined above. But do not even consider this without getting your own legal advice. I'm not a lawyer. I just play one on TV. Ha ha. I've got a legal friend but still get your own confirmation. |
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jamasian
Joined: 01 May 2011
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:59 am Post subject: |
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You probably should wait until you leave the place to start naming, but I agree in wanting to warn others of bad situations. That's when you make a posting stating that you're having too many problems blah blah PM me or email me (a new email that isn't connected to you)
Try to make it hard for them to find you. You also could have put the name of the school in there strategically so that it wouldn't automatically come up on search engines...Wanna edit it again?
Good luck though! |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| so that it wouldn't automatically come up on search engines |
That kind of defeats the purpose then. Maybe wait till the time is right, but then make it easy to find. |
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ajosshi
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Location: ajosshi.com
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
The anti-defamation law has to do with FACE. Saving FACE is essentially very important here. It doesn't matter if it's true, if you make someone lose FACE and are trying to publically humiliate them, that's where you can get into trouble. If you have a specific reason that you can prove why you were speaking out, then you might be able to fight it. In other words, if your intent was not to ruin their reputation but to prevent some grand tragedy from happening, protection of others, etc - this is one way around the law. Sorry, I can't think of good examples. But I had a couple of lawyer friends who told me this. Still, don't take my word about it. Get your own legal advice.
Essentially, you were not trying to humiliate the boss, but you were trying to prevent others from going through the pain and long suffering that you went through. You wanted to spare others the great shame that you felt...bla bla bla. (Have some type of documented proof of your complaint prior though.) Also helps if you get emotional like the Koreans and break down and start crying on the stand too. (Koreans really like that. Don't think like a westerner and keep a stiff upper lip. Let the emotions fly. Again lawyer friend.)
You counter sue for him making you lose FACE (pride) by throwing you out of work, not paying you, having to beg for money, publically taunting you with a lawsuit, etc. Of course if you decide to publically list him as a bad employer, just make you have the legal council to back you up and fight it if necessary. Go though the steps outlined above. But do not even consider this without getting your own legal advice. I'm not a lawyer. I just play one on TV. Ha ha. I've got a legal friend but still get your own confirmation. |
State facts:
X amount was promised, but Y amount was paid.
Made deductions that were not in the contract. When asked, in writing, the hagwon did not respond.
Promised pension in writing. Deducted for employee's part of the pension but did not forward that sum to the pension office. Information verified by the pension office.
Promised health insurance. Did not provide health insurance.
(The last 2 items are required by law.)
Promised housing at X location in the residential area of the city and provided photos. Location was different from promised and is in an industrial area with constant noise. Photos emailed were not of the same location, nor were they comparable. Post photos/video with audio of your provided housing.
Again, state facts. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
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| lives can be messed up WITHOUT proof. They don't NEED proof to make your life difficult |
Then it is moot discussing the merits of the proof or lack of in court. If they could do it regardless of the review or in the absence, we all should worry or not.
You are the one who is arguing what "should" happen.
For me, it's just scaremongering. Do your best with the rest. |
Westerners in the past have been brought to court by their former employers for doing what the OP did. Korean laws regarding libel/defamation are goofy. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| mayorgc wrote: |
| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| lives can be messed up WITHOUT proof. They don't NEED proof to make your life difficult |
Then it is moot discussing the merits of the proof or lack of in court. If they could do it regardless of the review or in the absence, we all should worry or not.
You are the one who is arguing what "should" happen.
For me, it's just scaremongering. Do your best with the rest. |
Westerners in the past have been brought to court by their former employers for doing what the OP did. Korean laws regarding libel/defamation are goofy. |
Well, it was a mix of racism on the part of Koreans and westerners not knowing their rights. You have to get your own legal advice before proceeding. But, if it was argued that you were doing thing to ruin someone's reputation even if it's true, you're making them lose FACE, you can be sued. But, if you can prove you were speaking up for other reasons and not to make them lose FACE, then you should be able to avoid a lawsuit. But, because you're not Korean maybe that rule won't work for you. I've never tried it, so I don't know. If you were posting info to help enlist support to get your payments owed you maybe. I know what I've been told, but I also know you should get your own legal advice before deciding whether or not or even how to proceed on this. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| ajosshi wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
The anti-defamation law has to do with FACE. Saving FACE is essentially very important here. It doesn't matter if it's true, if you make someone lose FACE and are trying to publically humiliate them, that's where you can get into trouble. If you have a specific reason that you can prove why you were speaking out, then you might be able to fight it. In other words, if your intent was not to ruin their reputation but to prevent some grand tragedy from happening, protection of others, etc - this is one way around the law. Sorry, I can't think of good examples. But I had a couple of lawyer friends who told me this. Still, don't take my word about it. Get your own legal advice.
Essentially, you were not trying to humiliate the boss, but you were trying to prevent others from going through the pain and long suffering that you went through. You wanted to spare others the great shame that you felt...bla bla bla. (Have some type of documented proof of your complaint prior though.) Also helps if you get emotional like the Koreans and break down and start crying on the stand too. (Koreans really like that. Don't think like a westerner and keep a stiff upper lip. Let the emotions fly. Again lawyer friend.)
You counter sue for him making you lose FACE (pride) by throwing you out of work, not paying you, having to beg for money, publically taunting you with a lawsuit, etc. Of course if you decide to publically list him as a bad employer, just make you have the legal council to back you up and fight it if necessary. Go though the steps outlined above. But do not even consider this without getting your own legal advice. I'm not a lawyer. I just play one on TV. Ha ha. I've got a legal friend but still get your own confirmation. |
State facts:
X amount was promised, but Y amount was paid.
Made deductions that were not in the contract. When asked, in writing, the hagwon did not respond.
Promised pension in writing. Deducted for employee's part of the pension but did not forward that sum to the pension office. Information verified by the pension office.
Promised health insurance. Did not provide health insurance.
(The last 2 items are required by law.)
Promised housing at X location in the residential area of the city and provided photos. Location was different from promised and is in an industrial area with constant noise. Photos emailed were not of the same location, nor were they comparable. Post photos/video with audio of your provided housing.
Again, state facts. |
As a public school worker, I'm not an expert in hakwons. But, I've heard you should go to the labor board and pension office. Also, msot cities or regional capitals will have some type of legal aid. But, you may need a Korean you trust to go with you. Figure out how to proceed and how to get around this stupid Libel law. After all, there has to be a legitimate way of protecting future foriegners from fraud. But make sure you have some letter or proof in writing stating that you are owed money from one of these government bodies, it will back up your claim. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| If there is some type of national listing of a help group for foriegners, perhaps someone can provide a link, address, and phone number. Then they can tell us how to reach out or where to go to find local help. It would be a good reference for us all to keep if we need it in the future. |
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Skippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Daejeon
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| If there is some type of national listing of a help group for foriegners, perhaps someone can provide a link, address, and phone number. Then they can tell us how to reach out or where to go to find local help. It would be a good reference for us all to keep if we need it in the future. |
ATEK if they are still around.  Other little groups and places that give some help. Yet overall the best group is Me, Myself and I. I find most of them are powerless, limited in scope, or slow in acting. The best resource is yourself and hopefully a big bank account.
I found the the second best help is google and some local friends. Third here at Dave's. |
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