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pedrotaves
Joined: 02 Mar 2011
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 Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| If you don't believe then why try to convince people it doesn't exist? |
believing things without evidence sets a dangerous precedent. it is something worth disabusing people of. see: climate change skeptics, pseudoscience believers, islamic fascism, ritual human sacrifice, contraceptive prohibition, discrimination of gays. |
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fosterman
Joined: 16 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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god bless him! he is with god now, I will pray for him
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris.Quigley wrote: |
I am a Christian -
I am thankful for Hitchens and saddened to hear about his death. He challenged me and I learned a lot about my own faith and what faith really is because of him. |
Cool. So you're the type that didn't mind a challenge. That's preferable to the "don't argue/don't question/just believe" mindset. |
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warmachinenkorea
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| pedrotaves wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If you don't believe then why try to convince people it doesn't exist? |
believing things without evidence sets a dangerous precedent. it is something worth disabusing people of. see: climate change skeptics, pseudoscience believers, islamic fascism, ritual human sacrifice, contraceptive prohibition, discrimination of gays. |
It's so dangerous that the most powerful countries in the world were built on these fallacies. |
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warmachinenkorea
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| warmachinenkorea wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| The Floating World wrote: |
I'm not religious, still, none of us can really argue with another's subjective experience. |
Sure we can. We can and we should. Especially if it's a farfetched supernatural claim. If someone says, "Some magic gnomes came to me one night and told me that if I believe in them, everything will be fine in my life." You couldn't argue with that?
| The Floating World wrote: |
| Intellectually he kind of boxed himself into a narrow corner. |
How so? He held varied stances on all sorts of topics. I didn't agree with everything he said, but intellectually speaking, he was the man. Eloquent yet tough and smart, and entertaining to read and watch. And he could quote scripture with the best of them, with a refreshing interpretation of it that really got under religious peoples' skin because it challenged their dogma. He didn't sugar coat anything. |
Leave people alone and let them think, or believe how they want. |
That sounds like a command. If they start the discussion by asserting that they believe in magic gnomes, then I'll respond however I want to. Thanks.
They are asserting a version of reality, if I want to argue with it I will, just as I would expect them to argue with my version of reality if I asserted it to them first.
If you say you don't believe in a god, the religious will be arguing with you almost immediately, so why can't it work the other way round? Sounds like a double standard.
| warmachinenkorea wrote: |
I've never understood Atheist that were so hell bent on proving Christians wrong.
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Most atheists aren't hell bent on proving anything, it's simply a LACK of a belief in a god. As such, it's often the religious who start the discussions by asserting that others should believe like they do, usually along with claims that they had a subjective experience and they want you to believe it too.
Nope, not buying it and I'll argue about it if I want to. And they are free to stop the discussion anytime and try to see if someone else will listen to their stories with a straight face.
How often do you see atheist groups on street corners or going door to door to spread the "truth" about their beliefs (or lack of) and their interpretation of what they think will happen to you if you don't believe like they do?
When atheist groups start getting tax exemptions and sending their troops door to door around the world trying to convert people, then you'll have more of an argument.
Ultimately, anyone CAN believe (or not believe) anything they want. That's their business of course. It's the point at which they begin to assert the belief to others that the discussion begins, argument or not. |
I never said anything about forcing anything on anyone. You want the freedom to respond to people how you want and people want the freedom to believe however they want. Seems hypocritical to me. I assume you've had some bad run-ins with some ignorant people religious people. My guess is Christians and you take it as they are shoving it down your throat. Just like you took what I said as a command and got a upset about it.
Freedom is like a fart, you don't mind your own, but you can't stand other's.
People can and do have the right to believe as they choose. And you have the right to speak as you choose. There are always repercussions when we open our mouths.
Why should atheists get tax exception? Religious groups get this because of the Church and State separate bit. Atheists are not a religious group. |
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bekinseki
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Well the universe has a way of balancing itself out. We lose a prominent atheist, and then a few days later we lose someone who thought he was God. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| bekinseki wrote: |
| Well the universe has a way of balancing itself out. We lose a prominent atheist, and then a few days later we lose someone who thought he was God. |
...lol  |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| warmachinenkorea wrote: |
| [People can and do have the right to believe as they choose. And you have the right to speak as you choose. |
Exactly. That was my point. People have the right to respond however they want. I'm glad we agree on that now.
Now how about you stop telling others to "leave people alone" when you don't know the context of the situation? Actually the context was hypothetical anyway; where someone was telling another that they saw magic garden gnomes, which is essentially asserting a version of reality, which is supposed to be based on facts.
If someone doesn't agree with those facts, they have every right to challenge them if they want to and obviously they are fine with the "repercussions".
If you want to help defend someone's garden gnome experience against a challenge that's very kind of you, but I don't know why you'd do it. You'd probably laugh if you heard it, just as much as I might.
Saying "leave people alone" is just trying to dictate how others should respond and shut down discussion. The statement didn't upset me at all, but let's try to be clear about the intent behind it.
Also you paint the issue as atheists trying to push their beliefs on others, when actually its almost always the other way around.
(Ex: massive organisations using their tax exemption and funding to send missionaries around the world to convert people to their belief system. How about THEY leave people alone?)
And if you read more closely, you'll see that the statement "when athiests get tax exemption" was used as a hypothetical to illustrate a point and does NOT actually advocate for tax exemption. |
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warmachinenkorea
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| warmachinenkorea wrote: |
| [People can and do have the right to believe as they choose. And you have the right to speak as you choose. |
Exactly. That was my point. People have the right to respond however they want. I'm glad we agree on that now.
Now how about you stop telling others to "leave people alone" when you don't know the context of the situation? Actually the context was hypothetical anyway; where someone was telling another that they saw magic garden gnomes, which is essentially asserting a version of reality, which is supposed to be based on facts.
If someone doesn't agree with those facts, they have every right to challenge them if they want to and obviously they are fine with the "repercussions".
If you want to help defend someone's garden gnome experience against a challenge that's very kind of you, but I don't know why you'd do it. You'd probably laugh if you heard it, just as much as I might.
Saying "leave people alone" is just trying to dictate how others should respond and shut down discussion. The statement didn't upset me at all, but let's try to be clear about the intent behind it.
Also you paint the issue as atheists trying to push their beliefs on others, when actually its almost always the other way around.
(Ex: massive organisations using their tax exemption and funding to send missionaries around the world to convert people to their belief system. How about THEY leave people alone?)
And if you read more closely, you'll see that the statement "when athiests get tax exemption" was used as a hypothetical to illustrate a point and does NOT actually advocate for tax exemption. |
So it's ok for you to respond to a person that believes in something you find odd, but it's not ok for me to respond how I want?
And if these things are hypothetical then you need to state that.
| Quote: |
| Now how about you stop telling others to "leave people alone" when you don't know the context of the situation? |
This is ironic since you want me to stop telling other what to do. |
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UseAsDirected
Joined: 12 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| warmachinenkorea wrote: |
| pedrotaves wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If you don't believe then why try to convince people it doesn't exist? |
believing things without evidence sets a dangerous precedent. it is something worth disabusing people of. see: climate change skeptics, pseudoscience believers, islamic fascism, ritual human sacrifice, contraceptive prohibition, discrimination of gays. |
It's so dangerous that the most powerful countries in the world were built on these fallacies. |
Actually, every single country in the world has built itself on these fallacies.  |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| UseAsDirected wrote: |
| warmachinenkorea wrote: |
| pedrotaves wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If you don't believe then why try to convince people it doesn't exist? |
believing things without evidence sets a dangerous precedent. it is something worth disabusing people of. see: climate change skeptics, pseudoscience believers, islamic fascism, ritual human sacrifice, contraceptive prohibition, discrimination of gays. |
It's so dangerous that the most powerful countries in the world were built on these fallacies. |
Actually, every single country in the world has built itself on these fallacies. |
Yes, which would suggest that it was the way it was meant to be, or do you think evolution would have had it another way?
They were useful tools for a mostly uneducated and naive populace.
Now we just need to look at all the old myths, decide which are the best messages and do away with the 'taking the stories literally' stuff.
Funny though, it seems humans need emotionally moving images or stories for important messages to really connect.
Anyway if the whole machinery of the USSR couldn't stop people believing and worshipping, not as if a few academics can.
I say let people believe what they like and even organise groups as long as they abide by the law (hey there scientology), have no influence ata local or natonal policy level and as long as the government stays out of it.
Pure rationality reminds me of something Sylvia Plath once said
| Quote: |
| "What I fear most, I think, is the death of the imagination.... If I sit still and don't do anything, the world goes on beating like a slack drum, without meaning. We must be moving, working, making dreams to run toward; the poverty of life without dreams is too horrible to imagine." |
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pedrotaves
Joined: 02 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, which would suggest that it was the way it was meant to be, or do you think evolution would have had it another way? |
this is hilarious. women were second-class citizens in many, many major cultures until only recently. does this imply that their subjugation is the "way it was meant to be?"
violence has been a constant throughout world history. does this mean that we should accept it as the "way it was meant to be" and stop trying to have wars?
you do not understand what you are talking about. just because a trait survives does NOT mean that it is necessarily useful. natural selection is not the only force by which evolution takes place. in addition, as many intelligent people have said before, certain traits are likely misfirings of a truly characteristic. i'll use the simple example that dawkins does: wouldn't it be beneficial for children to listen to their parents blindly when their parents tell them to not go near cliffs? there is a chance that that sort of genetic benefit could be mutated into a larger acceptance of things without evidence. |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| pedrotaves wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Yes, which would suggest that it was the way it was meant to be, or do you think evolution would have had it another way? |
this is hilarious. women were second-class citizens in many, many major cultures until only recently. does this imply that their subjugation is the "way it was meant to be?"
violence has been a constant throughout world history. does this mean that we should accept it as the "way it was meant to be" and stop trying to have wars?
you do not understand what you are talking about. just because a trait survives does NOT mean that it is necessarily useful. natural selection is not the only force by which evolution takes place. in addition, as many intelligent people have said before, certain traits are likely misfirings of a truly characteristic. i'll use the simple example that dawkins does: wouldn't it be beneficial for children to listen to their parents blindly when their parents tell them to not go near cliffs? there is a chance that that sort of genetic benefit could be mutated into a larger acceptance of things without evidence. |
No you do not understand what I am talking about apparently.
We did evolve creating myths and religions. I'm not saying we have to keep going in that direction dummy, just that it did happen that way, so it can't be undone and was obviouslt the way it was meant to happen. Jeez I'm so damn sick of having to spell out the obvious on this forum. There's barely a poster that can read another person's post and actually glean the meaning from it without putting some ridiculous spin on it.
People really need to learn how to read slow, digest, and then consider BEFORE hitting the reply button lol.
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:06 am Post subject: |
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Another journo dies, and the papers go to great efforts to eulogize him.
But really, Hitchens was an excellent writer and a third-rate thinker. His approach to religion was juvenile. His musings on the war on terror irresponsible. He exhibited classic signs of narcissism. And eventually his thinking corrupted even his writing.
I urge those unfamiliar with Hitchens to read four of his works, each on different topics. You will probably love one of them. You will probably loathe two of them. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| His approach to religion was juvenile. |
...how so? |
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