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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| motiontodismiss wrote: |
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The funny thing is, Korea still ranks at the bottom of the OECD for productivity. . |
A even funnier thing is...that's not true
http://www.koreabusinesscentral.com/forum/topics/korea-fares-poorly-in-labor?xg_browser=iphone
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| Korea ranked 23rd among the 31 member states of the OECD in labor productivity in 2009 and came second to last among 19 countries whose service industry labor productivity was surveyed. |
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Korea's labor productivity in the service industry was much poorer than in manufacturing. The country ranked fifth among 19 countries surveyed in the manufacturing industry with $84,864 but 18th in the service industry with a mere $34,956.
The reason is the Korean service industry's concentration on low value-added sectors such as restaurants, experts say.
"Advanced countries have a much higher proportion of high value-added service sectors such as finance, but in Korea the proportion of restaurant staff and salespeople is relatively high," said Ban Ka-un, a researcher at the Korea Productivity Center. |
23 of out 31 is not exactly the bottom..it's actually close to the top of the bottom third. and if we exclude service they come fifth out of 19...not exactly bad.
As stated part of the problem is their concentration on low value-added sectors like restaurants and shops.
But hey let's not focus on facts and reasons why. Why bother when you can have a good bash with a bunch of hyperbole thrown in for good measure right? |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| It all evens out over time...but most folks don't stick around long enough to see it even out.... |
I don't get it, evens out to what? Some years you get as many holidays as you can and others you get fewer. You never get more than you should, so the average is going to be fewer holidays than the maximum - which is crap. In the UK you get the same number of holidays every year |
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UknowsI
Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
23 of out 31 is not exactly the bottom..it's actually close to the top of the bottom third. and if we exclude service they come fifth out of 19...not exactly bad.
As stated part of the problem is their concentration on low value-added sectors like restaurants and shops.
But hey let's not focus on facts and reasons why. Why bother when you can have a good bash with a bunch of hyperbole thrown in for good measure right? |
I'm going even further and saying that the real productivity is a lot high in Korea. They are measuring value added as the base for the productivity. If you cut a person's hair in Scandinavia you have added $50, if you cut a person's hair in Korea, you have added $5. This makes the measurement very unreliable. On the other hand, Korea does put in a lot more hours than some of the other countries, which is not taken into account in the study. This would hurt their "per hour productivity", which I think is what many are complaining about. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It all evens out over time...but most folks don't stick around long enough to see it even out.... |
I don't get it, evens out to what? Some years you get as many holidays as you can and others you get fewer. You never get more than you should, so the average is going to be fewer holidays than the maximum - which is crap. In the UK you get the same number of holidays every year |
How many holidays is that? 9?
http://www.work-day.co.uk/workingdays_holidays_2012.htm
Versus Korea, with 14?
http://sgholiday.com/calendar/south-korea-2012-public-holidays/
Of course, not all of the off days fall Mon-Fri (but then, not everyone works Mon-Fri).
For the Mon-Fri folks, the 14 holidays equal...er...9 days off.
Just like the UK?
But wait, there's more! In a year that Chuseok doesn't fall on a weekend, you Mon-Fri folks get more than the 9 days off....and if Solnal ALSO doesn't fall on a weekend, that number creeps up even more....
...so in Korea you have at least as many holidays as in the UK, and you might actually have more...and you are complaining that Korea should be like the UK? No thank you -- I'd rather have it be like it is -- more time off. |
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Yaya
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| UknowsI wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
23 of out 31 is not exactly the bottom..it's actually close to the top of the bottom third. and if we exclude service they come fifth out of 19...not exactly bad.
As stated part of the problem is their concentration on low value-added sectors like restaurants and shops.
But hey let's not focus on facts and reasons why. Why bother when you can have a good bash with a bunch of hyperbole thrown in for good measure right? |
I'm going even further and saying that the real productivity is a lot high in Korea. They are measuring value added as the base for the productivity. If you cut a person's hair in Scandinavia you have added $50, if you cut a person's hair in Korea, you have added $5. This makes the measurement very unreliable. On the other hand, Korea does put in a lot more hours than some of the other countries, which is not taken into account in the study. This would hurt their "per hour productivity", which I think is what many are complaining about. |
Uh, have you seen the Korean work "ethic" firsthand? Sitting on your butt all day at a desk or by the cash register hardly counts as productive.
Unions in Korea do their darndest keep trying to raise wages yet do little to raise productivity. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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How many holidays is that? 9?
http://www.work-day.co.uk/workingdays_holidays_2012.htm
Versus Korea, with 14?
http://sgholiday.com/calendar/south-korea-2012-public-holidays/
Of course, not all of the off days fall Mon-Fri (but then, not everyone works Mon-Fri).
For the Mon-Fri folks, the 14 holidays equal...er...9 days off.
Just like the UK?
But wait, there's more! In a year that Chuseok doesn't fall on a weekend, you Mon-Fri folks get more than the 9 days off....and if Solnal ALSO doesn't fall on a weekend, that number creeps up even more....
...so in Korea you have at least as many holidays as in the UK, and you might actually have more...and you are complaining that Korea should be like the UK? No thank you -- I'd rather have it be like it is -- more time off. |
Yes but the nine bank holidays you get off in the UK are not the only holidays you get. In the UK if you work a five-day week, you are entitled to 28 days' paid holiday a year (5.6 X 5).
Bank holidays always fall on a Monday so you always get a long weekend and you are guaranteed those nine days off every year as part of your 28 days. I'm pretty sure that's more than you get here. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
How many holidays is that? 9?
http://www.work-day.co.uk/workingdays_holidays_2012.htm
Versus Korea, with 14?
http://sgholiday.com/calendar/south-korea-2012-public-holidays/
Of course, not all of the off days fall Mon-Fri (but then, not everyone works Mon-Fri).
For the Mon-Fri folks, the 14 holidays equal...er...9 days off.
Just like the UK?
But wait, there's more! In a year that Chuseok doesn't fall on a weekend, you Mon-Fri folks get more than the 9 days off....and if Solnal ALSO doesn't fall on a weekend, that number creeps up even more....
...so in Korea you have at least as many holidays as in the UK, and you might actually have more...and you are complaining that Korea should be like the UK? No thank you -- I'd rather have it be like it is -- more time off. |
Yes but the nine bank holidays you get off in the UK are not the only holidays you get. In the UK if you work a five-day week, you are entitled to 28 days' paid holiday a year (5.6 X 5).
Bank holidays always fall on a Monday so you always get a long weekend and you are guaranteed those nine days off every year as part of your 28 days. I'm pretty sure that's more than you get here. |
Fair enough -- you get more time off in the UK. The topic of discussion was paid government holidays, though, not leave or vacation time.
I wouldn't argue that it is very difficult to get vacation time in Korea, and that taking vacation time or sick days is MUCH easier in the US or the UK.
Of course, I HAVE a job where I get decent vacation, reasonable sick leave, and wouldn't get hassled if I actually took a day off sick...but I know that such a situation is very rare in Korea.
Holiday/vacation leave, sick leave, and national holidays are three different things, which all add into the big pot of "time off," but aren't really the same thing at all. I was only speaking about national holidays. I would agree that the other two are sorely lacking in Korea. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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From what friends tell me, 4-5 weeks vacation leave is given by most big employers in Korea. On top of the 'Red Days', variable though they are.
So typical Korean salary workers do have a lot of time off in theory. But not in practice.
The difference is, in somewhere like the UK, most people will take their 4-5 weeks vacation every year. In Korea they typically don't because, as friends tell me, your boss would hate you and make it too difficult for you to continue working there......and, of course, they get paid extra for not taking them. |
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UknowsI
Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Yaya wrote: |
| UknowsI wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
23 of out 31 is not exactly the bottom..it's actually close to the top of the bottom third. and if we exclude service they come fifth out of 19...not exactly bad.
As stated part of the problem is their concentration on low value-added sectors like restaurants and shops.
But hey let's not focus on facts and reasons why. Why bother when you can have a good bash with a bunch of hyperbole thrown in for good measure right? |
I'm going even further and saying that the real productivity is a lot high in Korea. They are measuring value added as the base for the productivity. If you cut a person's hair in Scandinavia you have added $50, if you cut a person's hair in Korea, you have added $5. This makes the measurement very unreliable. On the other hand, Korea does put in a lot more hours than some of the other countries, which is not taken into account in the study. This would hurt their "per hour productivity", which I think is what many are complaining about. |
Uh, have you seen the Korean work "ethic" firsthand? Sitting on your butt all day at a desk or by the cash register hardly counts as productive.
Unions in Korea do their darndest keep trying to raise wages yet do little to raise productivity. |
`
I have, but I have also seen the work ethics in Norway which ranks number two in the study, where you have to wait for the McDonald's staff to finish their private phone calls before taking your orders and a public sector where you can often see four people watching one person work. Overall I would say that construction workers and people working in the service sector are working a lot harder in Korea.
Still, I agree that the "per hour productivity" could be increased dramatically in Korea, especially for desk jobs. I am just trying to point out that I think the overall productivity of Korea is pretty good, which is why they are doing so well economically. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
From what friends tell me, 4-5 weeks vacation leave is given by most big employers in Korea. On top of the 'Red Days', variable though they are.
So typical Korean salary workers do have a lot of time off in theory. But not in practice.
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28 days is the statutory amount of time you get off in the UK. Better firms will give their workers more. Plus the average British worker takes 10 days off sick a year, without any repercussions. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
From what friends tell me, 4-5 weeks vacation leave is given by most big employers in Korea. On top of the 'Red Days', variable though they are.
So typical Korean salary workers do have a lot of time off in theory. But not in practice.
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28 days is the statutory amount of time you get off in the UK. Better firms will give their workers more. Plus the average British worker takes 10 days off sick a year, without any repercussions. |
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lab_vac_min_vac_tim_aro_the_wor_leg_req-time-around-world-legally-required
France wins with time off -- why are we talking about how much time off different countries give again?
Remember that work days and calendar days are NOT the same thing -- two weeks off is 14 calendar days, but only 10 work days....
Last edited by thegadfly on Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
From what friends tell me, 4-5 weeks vacation leave is given by most big employers in Korea. On top of the 'Red Days', variable though they are.
So typical Korean salary workers do have a lot of time off in theory. But not in practice.
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28 days is the statutory amount of time you get off in the UK. Better firms will give their workers more. Plus the average British worker takes 10 days off sick a year, without any repercussions. |
Right. There's no comparison in time off practices between the two countries. When I still lived in UK it was seen as almost expected to throw at least 1 'sickie' per month. Then a 2 week holiday twice per year. Plus the bank holidays.
Korean employers got used to the very nice situation (for them) of having their workers come in every working day of the year, so they never had to plan for covering workers. Nice gig for the employer. |
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Savant
Joined: 25 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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A lot of UK companies also operate flexible working hours. As long as I work my contracted weekly hours and stay during peak working times then I can come in early and leave early or vice versa. (but normally starting no later than 9.30am).
When I was in University I worked a summer job with my local council and from what I remember if I worked longer than my contracted hours then I could carry forward some of that time and use it as vacation time. I think it worked out at half time e.g. normal hours are 9-6 but if I worked 9-7 then I would get an extra 30 minutes vacation time. |
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motiontodismiss
Joined: 18 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Yaya wrote: |
Uh, have you seen the Korean work "ethic" firsthand? Sitting on your butt all day at a desk or by the cash register hardly counts as productive.
Unions in Korea do their darndest keep trying to raise wages yet do little to raise productivity. |
It's not the unions in Korea, it's the moronic adjoshis that have nothing better to do than to spend all night at the office and passive-aggressively force their staff to do the same. The reason people sit on their butts all day is because of the 50-somethings that just get nagged by their ajumma wives if they go home. They're the reason people spend 14 hours a day in their office, 8 of them on facebook. Plus there's the outdated notion that work hours=productivity.
It's all smoke and mirrors to "look" like they're working when in fact they're not. If the adjoshis that live in their offices would get a life and people were actually allowed to go home in peace once they were done for the day, per-hour productivity would double. Plus overtime needs to get more expensive-so expensive that it's cheaper to hire 2 people that never do overtime than 1 that does 20 hours' overtime a week. And if people are doing 60-80hour weeks constantly that most likely means you need to hire more people. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| motiontodismiss wrote: |
| Yaya wrote: |
Uh, have you seen the Korean work "ethic" firsthand? Sitting on your butt all day at a desk or by the cash register hardly counts as productive.
Unions in Korea do their darndest keep trying to raise wages yet do little to raise productivity. |
It's not the unions in Korea, it's the moronic adjoshis that have nothing better to do than to spend all night at the office and passive-aggressively force their staff to do the same. The reason people sit on their butts all day is because of the 50-somethings that just get nagged by their ajumma wives if they go home. They're the reason people spend 14 hours a day in their office, 8 of them on facebook. Plus there's the outdated notion that work hours=productivity.
It's all smoke and mirrors to "look" like they're working when in fact they're not. If the adjoshis that live in their offices would get a life and people were actually allowed to go home in peace once they were done for the day, per-hour productivity would double. |
One of my uni buddies is a foreign educated engineer currently working with a Korean company on an absolutely massive project (largest of its kind in the world). It's the first time that the company my friend works for has worked with a Korean company. They're now about six months past their initial deadline to finish the project with no end in sight, largely because of the Korean work culture.
My friend's best comment was in regards to "dinner". Apparently, the Korean staff is always asking he and his coworkers (all Muslim) out to dinner. Now, we all know what "dinner" means in the Korean work context. The next day, without fail, his coworkers expect things to run "smooth", in his words, and don't really expect to do much. All this adds up to six months in which my buddy and his whole team of Korean underlings have been working six days a week while still being months away from completing a project that was meant to be completed in June.
I respect the Korean willingness to work for infinite hours, but they'd do well to spend more time actually working and less time on smoke and coffee breaks. They might actually get to go home occasionally. |
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