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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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 Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| Kimchifart wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| weso1 wrote: |
| We're gradually moving to a global legal system. All the better I say. |
Sorry, totally but respectivly, disagree. I'm an American. I want the rights afforded me under the consitution. When I leave America and I'm under someone else's laws so be it. However, I do not want any sort of global legal system that could quite possibly remove some of my rights from the bill of rights and the constitution.
For example, there are certain rules of evidence, heresay laws, etc. that is acceptable in a British or various European courts but would be inadmissable in the court of law in America.
The rest of the world can follow ours if it wants. However, I would not want any other country's or some agreed upon global law to be applied to me in my own country.
Lastly, its unconstiutional for Americans to be subject to any foreign law and a global law would be foreign, while n the U.S. |
It almost sounds as if you think the American justice system is more just than the British system. |
Not saying that. The British system works for Britain and its what the Brits want. We have our own. Its what works for us. The British system may in fact be 'better' if analyzed by some panel of legal experts. Great for them. I'm an American. We have our own idea of what works for us. The point is I don't want to or think its legal to be forced to abide by some international legal standard domestically. Only Americans should have a say as to what legal system should abide IN America. The rest of the world can do what it likes. Britain can give up its own for it. Its their business. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Because murder is against the law across the board. If the Korean police have substantial evidence, evidence that would be acceptable in the USA he should be tried for that murder in the USA. I don't think he should be sent back to Korea though. |
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hellofaniceguy
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: On your computer screen!
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| young_clinton wrote: |
| Because murder is against the law across the board. If the Korean police have substantial evidence, evidence that would be acceptable in the USA he should be tried for that murder in the USA. I don't think he should be sent back to Korea though. |
So...let's say for the sake of argument...you are charged with a crime and you KNOW you did not do it...yet...the cops say you did and want your home country to take you to trial.....what about all the witnesses you have on your side who can testify that you were nowhere near the crime when it happen, etc...how can you confront your accuser? Who will pay to fly your witnesses, etc.? Food? Hotel?
I disagree�..he needs to come back to korea.
Over the years, thousands of people have been later cleared of crimes they were convicted of. And, thousands have been executed and later found to have been not guilty.
The U.S. is a good example�over the years�a number of those serving time have been cleared�some have spent 30 years in prison!!! |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| young_clinton wrote: |
| Because murder is against the law across the board. If the Korean police have substantial evidence, evidence that would be acceptable in the USA he should be tried for that murder in the USA. I don't think he should be sent back to Korea though. |
I would disagree. Extradition treaties are there for a reason. The wrong was committed against a Korean so I would support sending them back for trial for that main reason. A secondary reason is that its very hard to try someone in an American court for crimes committed in another country. The other countries may have rules of evidence, etc. that won't be accepted in America and a defense lawyer could attach American standards to foreign law enforcement and jurisprudence. It makes it difficult for both sides.
Also, terms of sentencing, etc.
I would also add that I would not extradite to certain countries. If someone is accused of murder for example in countries like N. Korea, Russia and such similar places where frame and corruption is rampant. There should be a list of countries where there is faith in the legal system that its fair and reasonable. Trumped charges can happen anywhere, including western nations but I would have more trust if the French, Japanese, Israeli or British accusation than I would N. Korea. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
| Kimchifart wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| weso1 wrote: |
| We're gradually moving to a global legal system. All the better I say. |
Sorry, totally but respectivly, disagree. I'm an American. I want the rights afforded me under the consitution. When I leave America and I'm under someone else's laws so be it. However, I do not want any sort of global legal system that could quite possibly remove some of my rights from the bill of rights and the constitution.
For example, there are certain rules of evidence, heresay laws, etc. that is acceptable in a British or various European courts but would be inadmissable in the court of law in America.
The rest of the world can follow ours if it wants. However, I would not want any other country's or some agreed upon global law to be applied to me in my own country.
Lastly, its unconstiutional for Americans to be subject to any foreign law and a global law would be foreign, while n the U.S. |
It almost sounds as if you think the American justice system is more just than the British system. |
Not saying that. The British system works for Britain and its what the Brits want. We have our own. Its what works for us. The British system may in fact be 'better' if analyzed by some panel of legal experts. Great for them. I'm an American. We have our own idea of what works for us. The point is I don't want to or think its legal to be forced to abide by some international legal standard domestically. Only Americans should have a say as to what legal system should abide IN America. The rest of the world can do what it likes. Britain can give up its own for it. Its their business. |
But as soon as you enter another country, you're subject to their laws.
If you want to be "safe inside the American legal system", you should never leave the States. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
But as soon as you enter another country, you're subject to their laws.
If you want to be "safe inside the American legal system", you should never leave the States. |
I totally agree. I don't think I posted that American laws should be applied outside America. Hope I didn't give that impression. I know once I go to another country, I have to follow their laws. |
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english puppet
Joined: 04 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
But as soon as you enter another country, you're subject to their laws.
If you want to be "safe inside the American legal system", you should never leave the States. |
I totally agree. I don't think I posted that American laws should be applied outside America. Hope I didn't give that impression. I know once I go to another country, I have to follow their laws. |
Agreed & agreed. Frankly, after the recent Defense Authorization Bill with its allowances for indefinite detention, I'm not feeling all that "safe" from American law outside of the States. |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
But as soon as you enter another country, you're subject to their laws.
If you want to be "safe inside the American legal system", you should never leave the States. |
I totally agree. I don't think I posted that American laws should be applied outside America. Hope I didn't give that impression. I know once I go to another country, I have to follow their laws. |
BUT...
a) American laws CAN, have been and ARE applied to Americans committing offenses abroad (see my previous post) and
b) to foreigners abroad alleged to have committed offenses (or simply planning to commit offenses) against American interests even though they never step foot on US soil...
i) anyone in detention in Guantanamo) even though it is illegal for Americans to do so.
ii) common practice for the DEA all over central and south America,
iii) USMC - kidnap a foreign president and drag him to the States for prosecution and do it live on CNN,
iv) USAF - drone attacks in foreign (ALLIED) countries,
v) USN - Seals would never invade a country and commit kidnappings and murder, would they?
vi) US Coast Guard - boarding foreign flagged vessels in international waters without legal privilege or right among others.
. |
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english puppet
Joined: 04 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
But as soon as you enter another country, you're subject to their laws.
If you want to be "safe inside the American legal system", you should never leave the States. |
I totally agree. I don't think I posted that American laws should be applied outside America. Hope I didn't give that impression. I know once I go to another country, I have to follow their laws. |
BUT...
a) American laws CAN, have been and ARE applied to Americans committing offenses abroad (see my previous post) and
b) to foreigners abroad alleged to have committed offenses (or simply planning to commit offenses) against American interests even though they never step foot on US soil...
i) anyone in detention in Guantanamo) even though it is illegal for Americans to do so.
ii) common practice for the DEA all over central and south America,
iii) USMC - kidnap a foreign president and drag him to the States for prosecution and do it live on CNN,
iv) USAF - drone attacks in foreign (ALLIED) countries,
v) USN - Seals would never invade a country and commit kidnappings and murder, would they?
vi) US Coast Guard - boarding foreign flagged vessels in international waters without legal privilege or right among others.
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It's a rather long list isn't it? |
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weso1
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| english puppet wrote: |
| ttompatz wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
But as soon as you enter another country, you're subject to their laws.
If you want to be "safe inside the American legal system", you should never leave the States. |
I totally agree. I don't think I posted that American laws should be applied outside America. Hope I didn't give that impression. I know once I go to another country, I have to follow their laws. |
BUT...
a) American laws CAN, have been and ARE applied to Americans committing offenses abroad (see my previous post) and
b) to foreigners abroad alleged to have committed offenses (or simply planning to commit offenses) against American interests even though they never step foot on US soil...
i) anyone in detention in Guantanamo) even though it is illegal for Americans to do so.
ii) common practice for the DEA all over central and south America,
iii) USMC - kidnap a foreign president and drag him to the States for prosecution and do it live on CNN,
iv) USAF - drone attacks in foreign (ALLIED) countries,
v) USN - Seals would never invade a country and commit kidnappings and murder, would they?
vi) US Coast Guard - boarding foreign flagged vessels in international waters without legal privilege or right among others.
. |
It's a rather long list isn't it? |
Yeah, so you see why I said a global legal system would be much easier for everyone?
Let's go ahead and install a global currency and political system while we're at it. And yeah, America's works best, so let's just use that one. Unless we can convince Americans to adopt the Scandinavian way, 'cause their system rocks.
As soon as we, as a planet, start acting as one, instead of just a collection of nations with arbitrary lines drawn in the dirt to separate us, the better. |
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english puppet
Joined: 04 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| weso1 wrote: |
| english puppet wrote: |
| ttompatz wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
But as soon as you enter another country, you're subject to their laws.
If you want to be "safe inside the American legal system", you should never leave the States. |
I totally agree. I don't think I posted that American laws should be applied outside America. Hope I didn't give that impression. I know once I go to another country, I have to follow their laws. |
BUT...
a) American laws CAN, have been and ARE applied to Americans committing offenses abroad (see my previous post) and
b) to foreigners abroad alleged to have committed offenses (or simply planning to commit offenses) against American interests even though they never step foot on US soil...
i) anyone in detention in Guantanamo) even though it is illegal for Americans to do so.
ii) common practice for the DEA all over central and south America,
iii) USMC - kidnap a foreign president and drag him to the States for prosecution and do it live on CNN,
iv) USAF - drone attacks in foreign (ALLIED) countries,
v) USN - Seals would never invade a country and commit kidnappings and murder, would they?
vi) US Coast Guard - boarding foreign flagged vessels in international waters without legal privilege or right among others.
. |
It's a rather long list isn't it? |
Yeah, so you see why I said a global legal system would be much easier for everyone?
Let's go ahead and install a global currency and political system while we're at it. And yeah, America's works best, so let's just use that one. Unless we can convince Americans to adopt the Scandinavian way, 'cause their system rocks.
As soon as we, as a planet, start acting as one, instead of just a collection of nations with arbitrary lines drawn in the dirt to separate us, the better. |
The lines that are drawn aren't arbitrary to the people who drew them - they mean something or they probably wouldn't exist right?
Certainly Afghanistan or Iraq (or dozens of other countries) aren't interested in any more US "installations" of anything given the our track record. Likewise, I'm not interested in being prosecuted under Sharia law.
If I've learned one thing from working in Korea it's that people think incredibly different and do not agree on a range of things - I'm afraid the whole "global village" and "we are the world" kinds of messages are fine for sloganeering or business campaigns. Reality's pretty complicated looking when you start looking around isn't it? |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:26 am Post subject: |
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[quote="sirius black"]
| young_clinton wrote: |
a defense lawyer could attach American standards to foreign law enforcement and jurisprudence. It makes it difficult for both sides.
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A defense lawyer in America could better defend his client against the far reaching arm of the government. This is what America is about and what the defense system in Britian is about. What's wrong with that? It appears that Korean bigotry can convict a man even if the evidence is flimsy.
Have you been keeping up with the trial of the American woman convicted of murder in Italy on evidence that was substandard. I was fortunate to read the Daily Mail's (British newspaper) outbursts of absolute contempt at the Italian justice system. The American system and the British system has higher standards, and that is the system I would be tried by if I could find my way back to America when facing immiment danger in another country. I have never heard of anyone American getting extradited back to any country other than Britian, because other countries systems are not as good. Also I like the jobs that are overseas and I don't see how I should not work overseas just because I refuse to be tried or would refuse to be tried if at all possible by an inferior system. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
a) American laws CAN, have been and ARE applied to Americans committing offenses abroad (see my previous post) and
b) to foreigners abroad alleged to have committed offenses (or simply planning to commit offenses) against American interests even though they never step foot on US soil...
i) anyone in detention in Guantanamo) even though it is illegal for Americans to do so.
ii) common practice for the DEA all over central and south America,
iii) USMC - kidnap a foreign president and drag him to the States for prosecution and do it live on CNN,
iv) USAF - drone attacks in foreign (ALLIED) countries,
v) USN - Seals would never invade a country and commit kidnappings and murder, would they?
vi) US Coast Guard - boarding foreign flagged vessels in international waters without legal privilege or right among others.
. |
Who were the recepients of these actions? |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:30 am Post subject: |
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From the OP's link:
"The police ran the investigation in China from Dec. 19 to 24 and finally extracted a confession from Cho last Sunday."
I wonder about their methods. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:46 am Post subject: |
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Simple rule: do not commit crimes abroad because it can go far, far worse for you.
In fact, every wannabe expat should be forced to watch that classic movie Midnight Express BEFORE they are issued a passport and a foreign work visa. 
I have seen far too many dumb people doing extremely stupid things abroad thinking they were somehow immune to local laws. |
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