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What is Hallyu? Block B ticks off Thailand..by acting Korean
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rchristo10

Joined: 14 Jul 2009

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:25 am Post subject:

Skipperoo wrote:

I don't really follow. There's nothing culturally "Korean" about making tasteless jokes and acting like a brat.

This may sound brash and indeed I'm assuming, but apparently you're either new here or simply living with your eyes half shut, or perhaps can't speak Korean well enough to know that...(I hate to say it cuz I love the country and the people...but) making tasteless jokes and acting like a brat (esp. on TV) is well...not specific to Korea, but definitely normal here. So, yeah, it's part of the myriad of traits with which Koreans can identify. Embarassed

So in essence I don't see why the government would find it necessary to step in and tell these kids not to be themselves when they go to other countries in the name of Hallyu. Their behavior is a part of their identity and, yes, I'd argue that it is a part of Korean (TV/ celebrity) culture for kids their ages.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:37 am Post subject:

rchristo10 wrote:

Skipperoo wrote:

I don't really follow. There's nothing culturally "Korean" about making tasteless jokes and acting like a brat.

Again, I think that's really just celebrity behavior and part of the internet news cycle. I'd say Americans can certainly identify with the celebrity who gets forced into issuing an apology for some insensitive remark situation. Heck, its rare when you find a celebrity who doesn't have controversy. I'd assume the same is true for other countries, especially when you consider sports stars.

As for Hallyu, its an export product. It gets some government backing, but its not really the governments concern. It really only got government support because it did well, not the other way around. I mean it's still the labels and the media companies that control the lion's share of profits.

It's pretty simple, there is no neo-fascist concept. It's a boy-band made up of kids who want to be on TV, and record companies that want to make money, and a government that hopes throwing a little money at its entertainment industry helps overall with the industry they actually care about- business. You know cars, shipping, electronics, biomed, nuclear technology, etc.

Which is more likely- Block-B part of some fascist mind-control and cultural export ministry of propaganda scheme? Or a bunch of 18 year old idiots who make jokes 18 year olds make?

Konglishman

Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:43 am Post subject:

By your rchristo10's logic, success trumps manners and that is where I fundamentally disagree with you. Therefore, entertainers should never once feel obligated to leave their cultural bubble when traveling abroad. Okay, I am glad that I don't know you given that you would presumably apply that same logic to yourself (as you said you were previously an entertainer of some sort).

Konglishman

Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:56 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Oh, I agree there are too many self-centered idiots in the entertainment business. However, I do gain more respect for such entertainers when they apologize for their actions instead of letting their egos take over.

rchristo10

Joined: 14 Jul 2009

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:01 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Thanks for your ideas. I also agree that celebrity behavior is often over sensationalized. But again, I'm talking a bit more than about this single incident...it just prompted the conversation. There's a bit more at stake in my interpretations of the events than simply what Block B did. I'm looking at Block B, the government, and the issue of Hallyu as a whole. Not to split hairs (literally).

Steelrails wrote:

As for Hallyu, its an export product. It gets some government backing, but its not really the governments concern. It really only got government support because it did well, not the other way around. I mean it's still the labels and the media companies that control the lion's share of profits.

I didn't know that the government was backing it as a means of profits. In that case, there would be no reason to see it as an investment at all. I thought Hallyu and its promotion had a great deal more to do with spreading Korean culture...that of course would lead to increased global recognition for the country that could eventually lead to foreign investments and the like. But the government seems pretty direct in saying that this Hallyu idea is not a gimmick for simply increasing tourism and foreign investment in things Korean. The Cultural Minister is pretty direct in promoting it as a spirited attempt at spreading Korean culture, not a quid quo pro economic incentive.

Steelrails wrote:

It's pretty simple, there is no neo-fascist concept. It's a boy-band made up of kids who want to be on TV, and record companies that want to make money, and a government that hopes throwing a little money at its entertainment industry helps overall with the industry they actually care about- business. You know cars, shipping, electronics, biomed, nuclear technology, etc.

Though I think you're marginalizing my points, I totally agree with you. But I still think its unhealthy for a nation to use its citizens in a socialist-style program to improve its lot. (I suddenly hear echoes of "human trafficking" lingering in the air).

Steelrails wrote:

Which is more likely- Block-B part of some fascist mind-control and cultural export ministry of propaganda scheme? Or a bunch of 18 year old idiots who make jokes 18 year olds make?

Both. You hit the nail on the proverbial head--my point exactly.

rchristo10

Joined: 14 Jul 2009

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:11 am Post subject:

Konglishman wrote:

By your rchristo10's logic, success trumps manners and that is where I fundamentally disagree with you. Therefore, entertainers should never once feel obligated to leave their cultural bubble when traveling abroad.

Okay, I am glad that I don't know you given that you would presumably apply that same logic to yourself (as you said you were previously an entertainer of some sort).

Hmm...you seem to generalize a great deal Konglishman. I'll assume your ID has something to do with the problem. Anyways, I never said Block B was successful. In fact, their success means little in terms of my argument (success being relative and all). However, their identity and their freedom to express themselves should not be contravened when they visit a country that asks them to visit in the capacity of their said professions (and Korea has the responsibility not to spank them, but to protect their fundamental rights as citizens...had they been tourist...that would be another story). They were not tourists. They were paid performers asked to visit the country because of who they are and what they do. Do we really require every performer visiting Arab nations to dawn Keffiyehs before strutting their stuff before their audiences? Why should Korea always feel the urge to make national appeals and concessions for the incidents of the few? Why not say, hey, that's who they are. We don't necessarily approve, but hey that's who you wanted--so that's who you got.

My points are about Hallyu, not about traveling abroad, which was not what these youths were doing. The production of camp (i.e. the forfeiture of identity) depends in part of the loss of complexity of meaning in the crossing of national borders. In entertainment (unlike people who are just going on a sight-seeing tour) and particularly in case of participating on a cultural transference package deal from one country to another, the notion of deterritorializing the spatial gap between production and consumption can prove only to further empower the western hegemony that already dominates the industry at the loss of the initial point: to spread Korean culture.

In laymen's terms: why can't Koreans be themselves when they visit another country in the capacity of celebrities--even if that means that the host countries will find their behavior rude, their breaths tainted with the putrid smell of garlic, or their arms overly adorned with tattoos?

I'd say, if you're going to "fundamentally disagree" with a person it would be prudent to understand what the fundamental argument amounts to.

If they're going to make this Hallyu stuff work, then Korea needs to assert itself by allowing celebrities--and its citizens to do the same--not by stifling them under the notion of "decent personality" and diplomatic conduct. If these countries wanted diplomacy, they should have asked for diplomats.

Zico! Whattcha go cut yo' hair off fo'? Grow some hair on dem balls and man up. I'll never forget the photo of the group in the paper with their heads hanging in shame--because I feel like they really had nothing to be shameful for. (Regretful yes, shameful, no.) OK, they said some hurtful things. OK, they pissed off some people. But hey, they acted like themselves for the camera, and no, they don't have the responsibility to make people like them or to be perfect.

Cultural Minister sending out memos talking about "decent personalities." What does that even mean? Shame on him. Sometimes being interesting and entertaining falls far outside the bourgeois concept of decency.

Last edited by rchristo10 on Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:46 am; edited 1 time in total

Konglishman

Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:45 am Post subject:

rchristo10 wrote:

Konglishman wrote:

Hmm...you seem to generalize a great deal Konglishman. I'll assume your ID has something to do with the problem. Anyways, I never said Block B was successful. In fact, there success means little to me. However, their identity and their freedom to express themselves should not be contravened when they visit a country that asks them to visit in the capacity of their said professions. (Had they been tourist...that would be another subject).

My points are about Hallyu, not about traveling abroad, which was not what these youths were doing. The production of camp (i.e. the forfeiture of identity) depends in part of the loss of complexity of meaning in the crossing of national borders. In entertainment (unlike people who are just going on a sight-seeing tour) and particularly in case of participating on a cultural transference package deal from one country to another, the notion of deterritorializing the spatial gap between production and consumption can
prove only to further empower the western hegemony that already dominates the industry.

In laymen's terms: why can't Koreans be themselves when they visit another country in the capacity of celebrities--even if that means that the host
countries will find their behavior rude, their breaths tainted with the putrid
smell of garlic, or their arms overly adorned with tattoos.

I'd say, if you're going to "fundamentally disagree" with a person it would be
prudent to understand what the fundamental argument amounts to.

I could care less about long convoluted excuses. If someone starts offending
me or my friends, an apology is in order as opposed to some lame excuse.
Also, by the way, if say a British entertainer were to come over to America
and exhibit rude behavior along with insensitive comments about the
Hurricane Katrina disaster in New Orleans, I would be outraged. So, don't
think for a second (if you were) that this is an issue of me being against
Korea. Rather, it is me sympathizing with how offended many Thais must
feel about this incident.

Further, even if it were only for business reasons, the Korean entertainment business should care about how Thai citizens feel as they are in fact a huge fan base of Hallyu in Southeast Asia. Anyways, regardless of the underlying reasons, Block B ultimately did right thing by apologizing to the citizens of Thailand.

Finally, regarding my user ID, I am not sure what you would find offensive about Konglish. The fact is that Koreans use their particular style of pronunciation when it comes to borrowed English words. So, when I learned to use Konglish, that was one of the first steps in my adaptation to life in Korea. Surely, to do otherwise (namely making no effort to learn any Korean or how English vocabulary has been incorporated into the language) would not be well regarded by Koreans.

rchristo10

Joined: 14 Jul 2009

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:52 am Post subject:

Konglishman wrote:

I'm sure you would--so would I. But, do you think the Queen or PM of Britain/ England or his Minister of Cultural Media & Sport would issue an apology and send letters of condemnation to British Entertainment Companies calling for mandatory etiquette courses for entertainers?

Wow, you're either dense or just purposely feigning ignorance.

Konglishman wrote:

Finally, regarding my user ID, I am not sure what you would find offensive about Konglish.

Offensive? Puhahaha...reread what I wrote and think inference...inference...inference..

OK, dense. I get it. Laughing

Konglishman

Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:59 am Post subject:

rchristo10 wrote:

Konglishman wrote:

I'm sure you would--so would I. But, do you think the Queen or PM of Britain/ England or his Minister of Cultural Media & Sport would issue an apology and send letters of condemnation to British Entertainment Companies calling for mandatory etiquette courses for entertainers.

Wow, you're dense. Or just purposely feigning ignorance?

I don't necessarily expect that, but frankly speaking, I have no problem with a government taking such actions. Different countries will do things differently. The important thing is that there should be a level of respect exhibited by any given country towards another. Whether that is enforced by individual actions or even some combination of that and government directives, I could care less.

rchristo10

Joined: 14 Jul 2009

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:10 am Post subject:

Konglishman wrote:

rchristo10 wrote:

Konglishman wrote:

I'm sure you would--so would I. But, do you think the Queen or PM of Britain/ England or his Minister of Cultural Media & Sport would issue an apology and send letters of condemnation to British Entertainment Companies calling for mandatory etiquette courses for entertainers.

Wow, you're dense. Or just purposely feigning ignorance?

Wow, to think that when I took a piss this morning, I was doing it in the name of my country. Dude. What exactly are you talking about? Or did you read what has been written above? Block B's actions were a country-to-country sign of animosity or disrespect??? Shocked

You seem to be contradicting yourself as well (See above). Why should a country bow down to another for such a petty matter. That's seriously *happy*, too *happy* for any country. NO! Korea should not bow down because some guys ticked off some of their non-Korean fans. That's ridiculous and sad.

Talk about walking on egg shells. Perhaps we should have made Rain apologize for his "Why so serious joke?" It didn't fair well with his audience...nope...not at all. BTW: After he cuts his hair be sure to send me a locket...darn he's already in the army...missed that photo op.

Gosh, arguing with you has totally lost meaning and interest...like conversing with a 9 year old. PM me man. Derrida calls.

tanklor1

Joined: 13 Jun 2006

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:02 am Post subject:

Young pop stars act like assholes... haven't heard anyone ever doing that before. They did make a very stupid mistake though I can understand Thailand being royally pissed at them.

Konglishman

Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:05 am Post subject:

rchristo10, Like it or not, when you or I or anyone else goes to another country, to a large degree, we are often perceived as cultural ambassadors of our home countries. To give an extreme example, suppose an American traveled to Pakistan and decided to burn the Quran. In all likelihood, that would lead to a great deal of animosity directed at Americans. Or just to give a less extreme example, lets say that a Japanese man were to go to Korea and started loudly insisting that Dokdo belongs to Japan. While that would not likely lead to a national uproar unless he was a well known person, it would almost certainly lead to increased animosity on a local level against Japan. While people are certainly free to say what they want, you seem to forget that there is also responsibility that comes along with freedom of expression. In the case of Block B, along with showing bad manners, they were making light of a national catastrophe in Thailand. Obviously, the South Korean government is correct to be concerned that this kind of behavior has the potential to hurt relations between Korea and Thailand. Of course, I understand that you are concerned about Block B's freedom of expression, but I just disagree with your take on it. In fact, Block B could have simply refused to apologize. Consequently, they probably would have lost funding from the Korean government, but hey, that is the Korean government's choice with regards to whom it wishes to give funding to.

rchristo10

Joined: 14 Jul 2009

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:41 am Post subject:

Double post...see below. Last edited by rchristo10 on Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

rchristo10

Joined: 14 Jul 2009

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:04 pm Post subject:

Konglishman wrote:

rchristo10,

Like it or not, when you or I or anyone else goes to another country, to a large degree, we are often perceived as cultural ambassadors of our home countries. To give an extreme example, suppose an American traveled to Pakistan and decided to burn the Quran. In all likelihood, that would lead to a great deal of animosity directed at Americans. Or just to give a less extreme example, lets say that a Japanese man were to go to Korea and started loudly insisting that Dokdo belongs to Japan. While that would not likely lead to a national uproar unless he was a well known person, it would almost certainly lead to increased animosity on a local level against Japan.

Why shouldn't Korean celebrities be allowed to represent themselves, not their nations? The point is that even if Beyonce said a racist comment, the US would not apologize for her behavior--she's Beyonce, not Albright.

Granted, globalization has inadvertantly led to a strengthened sense of nationalism, and Korea being homogeneous doesn't really help in such situations. We get it. But dude, you're not an ambassador of any country. Trust me. People will forget you just as quickly as you'd make the paper for such behavior. But, they'd likely not forget Obama or his attendants making amends to the US society on the your behalf.

That band said something stupid. Why make them ambassadors? People use the whole "you're a representative of such-and-such country," crap to get FOBs to at least behave or consider the culture differences when they go abroad. The truth is that host countries know better than to believe that a single foreigner represents any country. And if they say otherwise, then they're just using it as ammunition for their salient xenophobia and prejudices. Personally, I hate the idea of telling people such things because it unnecessarily puts said (imagined) ambassador on a pedestal from the outset. Who says natives care so much about said ambassador's homeland as to see them as well...an ambassador?

I admit that the homogeneity of Korea makes tagging them and their behavior much easier, so the US examples that you and I have employed are faulty to say the least. But, still, that's why we have...you named it: Ambassadors! And no, a kids band doesn't cut it.

With that in mind, a country shouldn't belittle itself for such pettiness. (Ever consider why Japan was/ is so reluctant to apologize for their past ills?) Korea should not apologize for that band's behavior nor link it to Hallyu.

Korean entertainers also need to learn the fine art of regret to replace this antiquated, colonial period notion of shame & remorse, which takes small matters and makes them much, much worse. With these type of role models (not singling out only the band in question) it's no wonder that their fans don't take slightly less petty matters to the extreme and embark on their own shame rituals (i.e. suicide).

Shame for a slip of the tongue? Cutting off your hair? Making an apologetic video? Having a Cultural Minister of the country send letters to avoid such grave mistakes in the future? It's no wonder there's a major suicide problem here. This shame culture has to be put to rest! If we can't get rid of the undue reactionism that typically precedes it, then maybe we should at least work in reverse. Regret is one thing, but to take something as petty as this and to push it to such an extreme is beyond reason.

Make a mistake, correct it, and do your best to avoid making it again. Keep your head up, because it's pretty damn hard to go forward when you're looking less than two feet ahead.

Konglishman wrote:

While people are certainly free to say what they want, you seem to forget that there is also responsibility that comes along with freedom of expression. In the case of Block B, along with showing bad manners, they were making light of a national catastrophe in Thailand. Obviously, the South Korean government is correct to be concerned that this kind of behavior has the potential to hurt relations between Korea and Thailand. Of course, I understand that you are concerned about Block B's freedom of expression, but I just disagree with your take on it.

In fact, Block B could have simply refused to apologize. Consequently, they probably would have lost funding from the Korean government, but hey, that is the Korean government's choice with regards to whom it wishes to give funding to.

Of all the posts and crap you've been writing, finally, you're on topic. Believe it or not, I'm not stupid. I know that there are consequences for one's actions. That's fine and dandy; nothing new there. My point FROM THE BEGINNING, which either you're ignoring or purposely missing in your astute reading, is that their behavior in the interview [see LINK in original post] was not something that the country should have apologized for by involving the Cultural Minister--which in my view made it a national issue. Hallyu, if it's to amount to anything, has to be more than merely the individuals who encompass it. And telling Koreans to put on fronts and be other than who they are for the sake of "decent personalities" is not the right way to go--apology or no apology. Get it!?

pkang0202

Joined: 09 Mar 2007

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:21 pm Post subject:

Quote:

NOW HERE�S WHAT THE MEDIA DON�T TELL YOU:

1. Block B donated money to Thailand before the interview, long before the interview. Each member individually donated an amount that is equivalent to around $200.

2. Block B donated all of their earnings from their Thailand showcase to charity causes in relation to the flood.

3. During the Thailand showcase, Block B, with the help of Thai BBCs, donated and distributed books to Thai schools to help in the recovering of the country from damage caused by the flood.

4. 7000won is equivalent to around $6, I am told. Zico did not say he would only give that amount of money to Thailand, he did not say Thailand should be grateful for that money, he did not joke about the flood. The interview asked about their paychecks, and about them donating money. As they were discussing this Zico said he only had 7000won on him right then, and they joked about him being poor.

5. Every month, Block B donate around $200 to Africa (I am not sure if each member does this individually or not, but I think so).

6.The interview linked above is not the full interview, and the most widely available version of the interview is very badly cut.

7. Taewoon of Co-Ed/SPEED, Zico�s older brother, has personally tweeted a link to an honest and accurate article that includes the proper translation/transcript and (I�m not 100% on this part) the full uncut interview.

8. Antis have created death petitions and sent many death threats, they have created petitions for the group to be disbanded, they are spreading false translations, and they are harassing Zico�s mother and brother online (twitter and cyworld).

9. Not only has Zico shaved his head, and each member individually apologised (with unique and lengthy writings, not just �I�m sorry�, and without trying to justify or look innocent), but they are withdrawing from many events in their schedules. Block B might even be taking a full and extended hiatus from the industry to self-reflect and learn from this. There are rumours (emphasis on �rumours�) that other members of Block B might yet shave their heads.

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