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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Kimchifart wrote: |
| [. The biggest problem here is the attitude of students and class sizes. Both are appalling. |
As regards attitude you could say that about most school systems including our own...it's even worse there on average.
And why is the class size so appalling?
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/class-size-around-the-world/
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| Note that some of the countries with some of the world�s highest achieving student bodies � like Korea and Japan � have the biggest class sizes. |
Bolding mine. |
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Hugo85
Joined: 27 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Kimchifart wrote: |
| [. The biggest problem here is the attitude of students and class sizes. Both are appalling. |
As regards attitude you could say that about most school systems including our own...it's even worse there on average.
And why is the class size so appalling?
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/class-size-around-the-world/
| Quote: |
| Note that some of the countries with some of the world�s highest achieving student bodies � like Korea and Japan � have the biggest class sizes. |
Bolding mine. |
Bigger class size probably work very well in rote memorization classes and problem-solving classes, but in classes where participation is vital (such as English) I think they would be inferior to small class sizes. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:48 am Post subject: Re: Wanted: native english speaker |
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If he finds himself again someday without any money during his travels, please do not visit this country again....
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Absolutely. He'd be better off going to Vietnam. Better weather, easier jobs, more lax visas, and the people who hire backpackers accept don't fool themselves into thinking they're going to hire someone with a PhD in teflology for a mere 2.5 mil Won. |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Kimchifart wrote: |
| [. The biggest problem here is the attitude of students and class sizes. Both are appalling. |
As regards attitude you could say that about most school systems including our own...it's even worse there on average.
And why is the class size so appalling?
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/class-size-around-the-world/
| Quote: |
| Note that some of the countries with some of the world�s highest achieving student bodies � like Korea and Japan � have the biggest class sizes. |
Bolding mine. |
Ah, two countries with large class sizes in the public schools followed by hours of small class sizes in hagwons and closely monitored individual study at home?
The Finns, Canadians, Australians and others produce similar results as Japan and Korea with significantly less grind and supplementary education. If we're going to have any honest discussion about educational policy we can't keep framing it as Korea/Japan/China vs. the US.
As for the article: awkwardly written at times and the author is disconcertingly focused on appearance, lifestyle, and grammar-based instruction. Why the hell would you bring over native speakers just to teach grammar and spelling anyway? The whole point is that conversational ability was low; a bearded backpacker with a degree can certainly be put to better use by focusing on speaking and listening in his brief time each week with each group of students at a public school. With advanced students, literature instruction and writing (style, organization, structure of arguments) could also be useful but that probably won't be encountered in most public schools (esp. since middle and high schools are cutting lots of teachers). |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:41 am Post subject: |
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Why doesn't this guy talk about the scads of fully qualified teachers who
were encouraged to leave a system involving inept, unqualified and often
belligerent, hostile co-teachers? |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Kimchifart wrote: |
| [. The biggest problem here is the attitude of students and class sizes. Both are appalling. |
As regards attitude you could say that about most school systems including our own...it's even worse there on average.
And why is the class size so appalling?
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/class-size-around-the-world/
| Quote: |
| Note that some of the countries with some of the world�s highest achieving student bodies � like Korea and Japan � have the biggest class sizes. |
Bolding mine. |
Class sizes in public schools are irrelevant since the students learn nothing in the public schools.
The students who learn anything learn at hogwans, with professional home teachers, and in some cases they teach themselves. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
Class sizes in public schools are irrelevant since the students learn nothing in the public schools.
The students who learn anything learn at hogwans, with professional home teachers, and in some cases they teach themselves. |
But... but... government-run education MUST be the way students learn, right? Only a nation's government can educate its children... right!?
*cowering in existential panic* |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
Why doesn't this guy talk about the scads of fully qualified teachers who
were encouraged to leave a system involving inept, unqualified and often
belligerent, hostile co-teachers? |
Those numerous hostile Korean co-teachers are simply continuing the long tradition of anti-foreign resentment that is deeply and historically embedded in the national psyche.
As for qualifications, I would suggest that E2 requirements include either
a) a relevant degree in education, linguistics or English:
b) At least a years worth of ESL experience
c) A respected ESL qualification
Or some combination of the above. It is ridiculous for Koreans to keep whining "foreign teachers are not qualified!!" but then choose to keep hiring unqualified people.
In fact often they actively do not hire people with qualifications and experience, because they are not white, too old (ie over 30  ) or not american.
They treat the teaching profession like some sort of beauty pageant and every school principal wants his very own blonde american female. It is an insult to those who enjoy teaching and take their jobs seriously.
The writer of the letter does also not seem to be aware of the rampant abuses of foreign teachers at the hands of korean employers. Nonpayment of wages, breaking of contracts, physical violence, and so on. Attracting a better grade of teacher might begin with making efforts to improve their reputation. |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
Why doesn't this guy talk about the scads of fully qualified teachers who
were encouraged to leave a system involving inept, unqualified and often
belligerent, hostile co-teachers? |
Those numerous hostile Korean co-teachers are simply continuing the long tradition of anti-foreign resentment that is deeply and historically embedded in the national psyche.
As for qualifications, I would suggest that E2 requirements include either
a) a relevant degree in education, linguistics or English:
b) At least a years worth of ESL experience
c) A respected ESL qualification
Or some combination of the above. It is ridiculous for Koreans to keep whining "foreign teachers are not qualified!!" but then choose to keep hiring unqualified people.
In fact often they actively do not hire people with qualifications and experience, because they are not white, too old (ie over 30 ) or not american.
They treat the teaching profession like some sort of beauty pageant and every school principal wants his very own blonde american female. It is an insult to those who enjoy teaching and take their jobs seriously.
The writer of the letter does also not seem to be aware of the rampant abuses of foreign teachers at the hands of korean employers. Nonpayment of wages, breaking of contracts, physical violence, and so on. Attracting a better grade of teacher might begin with making efforts to improve their reputation. |
I agree with A and C, but someone has to get the experience somewhere. I think that pay should be much lower for first year teachers (almost like a living stipend) just for the experience, but after that, higher. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:19 am Post subject: |
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Ah yes, keep the first years at less than 1.2 and see what happens.
Given the financial incentive for admin to keep changing teachers every year,
what do you suppose the outcome would be? |
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detonate
Joined: 16 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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his email address is right there, did anyone email him?  |
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joelove
Joined: 12 May 2011
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| An article that points out that someone was not great at his job. Amazing. |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| ^^Exactly. That's my response to "bad foreign teacher" talk; "Who hired him? Why did they hire him?" |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote: |
| Julius wrote: |
As for qualifications, I would suggest that E2 requirements include either
a) a relevant degree in education, linguistics or English:
b) At least a years worth of ESL experience
c) A respected ESL qualification
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I agree with A and C, but someone has to get the experience somewhere. I think that pay should be much lower for first year teachers (almost like a living stipend) just for the experience, but after that, higher. |
A should have some considerations. If you look at the course list for an average English degree, it's often focused on literature or composition and therefore pretty irrelevant to most English instruction in Korea (though there certainly are exceptions for high level students). Basically, any 4 year degree requires a similar level of English proficiency as an English major; the main difference between English majors and non-majors is genre knowledge/awareness in writing and familiarity with Shakespeare or Post-Modern Fiction or whatever else they specialized in.
I'd venture to say that anyone with a foreign language major is probably better prepared to teach English in the average Korean EFL setting. Experience learning a second language (strategies!), several years of observing their own foreign language teachers, and increased grammatical awareness are generally going to be more useful than intimate knowledge of allegory in Hemingway's works (and I say that as a lover of literature).
But yes, requiring one of the three things that Julius mentioned would be a step in the right direction, and I say that as someone who first came without any of them. It wouldn't have been too much of a bother or burden to complete a legit 100 hour online TEFL cert. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Kimchifart wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| sojusucks wrote: |
| Koreans do not really care about qualifications until it is time for propaganda. They hire with extreme discrimination. Such is life in a place with limited "human rights." |
+10 points to Gryffindor.
Author is blaming the wrong guy. Assuming the guy's resume said he was hanging about in India backpacking, etc. and not working what do you expect?
Also, Korea's habit of choosing teachers based solely on a picture. Not to mention limiting the teaching pool to just seven countries (what about the Caribbean, Bermuda, etc. for a start). First, there are more than 7 countries who speak english. Second there are tons of other teachers who have great english speaking and teaching skills from places such as the Philipines as well as Europe.
All these mistakes has been a boon for many of us. However, Koreans have to blame themselves where they let ajumas with a limited and often biased view of the outside world have a huge say in who gets hired in hogwons and private schools. In the west we leave it up to the people who study education for a living and other experts. Parents trust the experts in the west but in Korea the parents, mainly the mothers, have the biggest say. A$$ backwards but you get what you pay for.
They could even spend some of the millions they spend on teachers each year by simply offering the best of college students who major in english and want to teach to spend a school year or two in America, Canada, Oz, etc. Its done now but on a wider scale and base it on academic scores and not cost as now if you're from a poor family but have good grades its too much to be an exchange student. Even use the Philipines more for experience. |
There's a simple solution: they should make a recognised 100 hour teaching certificate (not an online one, but a CELTA/certTESOL) part of the E2 requirement. They probably shouldn't aim any higher than that qualifications wise. They are dreaming if they think PGCEs are going to find the teaching experience in this country in any way fulfilling. The biggest problem here is the attitude of students and class sizes. Both are appalling. |
Don't underestimate experience being the best teacher of all. I've got a great rep in my area with only a business degree and nothing else. I would hope to go take a 120 hour TESOL someday. But those dang things cost money. Lodging, eating, and the cost of the course for the month can set you back 3 to 5 grand in total for everything. Coming out of university with debt to your eyeballs and no money, it may be hard to swing. That said, when I eventually get my current debts paid, I will go do a professional one. For now, it's a half as online one.
If I decide I want to continue doing this, I will pursue the proper avenues when I finish my current debts. The great won crash of 2008 to 2009 didn't help. But, that's life. I'll get there.
In the meantime, plug away at Korean study, improve teaching methods, etc. |
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