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pegasus64128
Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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 Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
| pegasus64128 wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
"fans of the series have complained" (fans plural)
"To give you easy access to some of the information on the series have a look at some of these"
"The series have been adapted from Henning Mankell's best selling Kurt Wallander " (WHOAH, why is it series have? Because "the". Bet you it went on for 2 or more series.
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"fans of the series have complained" (fans plural)
"fans of the series' have complained" (fans plural + series plural)
"To give you easy access to some of the information on the series, have a look at some of these"
"The series' have been adapted from Henning Mankell's best selling Kurt Wallander " (WHOAH, why is it series have? Because "the". Bet you it went on for 2 or more series'. |
Was there a point or conclusion you wanted to make? You appear to have just highlighted what I put in.
When I said "fans plural" I meant "fans" is plural to explain why "have" is there and not "has". It wasn't because series could be construed as plural.
You stated "the" and not "a" which is what was in the original post.
You can't say, "fans of a series' have complained" |
Indeed, the plural form of 'series' is 'series'. It is both an irregular singular + plural noun.
Knowing this, below is the simplest explanation for the OP:
A. A series of episodes have left permanent imprints on their minds.
B. Two series of episodes have left permanent imprints on their minds.
Haha, *ERROR* does not compute. It' the 'episodes' that forces the 'have'
by necessity. 'Episodes' implies plurality of the 'series' by default.
Episodes are serial....
Series are episodic.
Last edited by pegasus64128 on Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:12 am; edited 3 times in total |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
| pegasus64128 wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
"fans of the series have complained" (fans plural)
"To give you easy access to some of the information on the series have a look at some of these"
"The series have been adapted from Henning Mankell's best selling Kurt Wallander " (WHOAH, why is it series have? Because "the". Bet you it went on for 2 or more series.
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"fans of the series have complained" (fans plural)
"fans of the series' have complained" (fans plural + series plural)
"To give you easy access to some of the information on the series, have a look at some of these"
"The series' have been adapted from Henning Mankell's best selling Kurt Wallander " (WHOAH, why is it series have? Because "the". Bet you it went on for 2 or more series'. |
Was there a point or conclusion you wanted to make? You appear to have just highlighted what I put in.
When I said "fans plural" I meant "fans" is plural to explain why "have" is there and not "has". It wasn't because series could be construed as plural.
You stated "the" and not "a" which is what was in the original post.
You can't say, "fans of a series' have complained" |
hmm...
His highlight was for...series'.
Perhaps he thought that the plural of series required the apostrophe...it doesn't.
As for the middle one...his highlight was for the missing comma.
"To give you easy access to some of the information on the series (missing comma) have a look at some of these"
The comma is not an option...it is required.
"To give you easy access to some of the information on the series, (you should) have a look at some of these"
In that sentence...have is not even operating together with series in the independent clause.
So...kind of a bad example. |
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pegasus64128
Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
| pegasus64128 wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
"fans of the series have complained" (fans plural)
"To give you easy access to some of the information on the series have a look at some of these"
"The series have been adapted from Henning Mankell's best selling Kurt Wallander " (WHOAH, why is it series have? Because "the". Bet you it went on for 2 or more series.
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"fans of the series have complained" (fans plural)
"fans of the series' have complained" (fans plural + series plural)
"To give you easy access to some of the information on the series, have a look at some of these"
"The series' have been adapted from Henning Mankell's best selling Kurt Wallander " (WHOAH, why is it series have? Because "the". Bet you it went on for 2 or more series'. |
Was there a point or conclusion you wanted to make? You appear to have just highlighted what I put in.
When I said "fans plural" I meant "fans" is plural to explain why "have" is there and not "has". It wasn't because series could be construed as plural.
You stated "the" and not "a" which is what was in the original post.
You can't say, "fans of a series' have complained" |
hmm...
His highlight was for...series'.
Perhaps he thought that the plural of series required the apostrophe...it doesn't.
As for the middle one...his highlight was for the missing comma.
"To give you easy access to some of the information on the series (missing comma) have a look at some of these"
The comma is not an option...it is required.
"To give you easy access to some of the information on the series, (you should) have a look at some of these"
In that sentence...have is not even operating together with series in the independent clause.
So...kind of a bad example. |
| pegasus64128 wrote: |
Indeed, the plural form of 'series' is 'series'. It is both an irregular singular + plural noun.
Knowing this, below is the simplest explanation for the OP:
A. A series of episodes have left permanent imprints on their minds.
B. Two series of episodes have left permanent imprints on their minds. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
As for the middle one...his highlight was for the missing comma.
"To give you easy access to some of the information on the series (missing comma) have a look at some of these"
The comma is not an option...it is required.
"To give you easy access to some of the information on the series, (you should) have a look at some of these"
In that sentence...have is not even operating together with series in the independent clause.
So...kind of a bad example. |
You missed the intent of my posting those quotes. I didn't make them up as examples. I pasted them to show results, not examples, but results of how people use the same words. It's fairly easy to misuse words (especially for native speakers) when we hear the same set of words used to mean something different.
You noticing that they were "bad examples" just illustrates this more. We can easily "accept" the word "have" because we hear that combination often. Look at the whole picture, not just one slice. |
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pegasus64128
Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:16 am Post subject: |
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Haha, *ERROR* does not compute. It's the 'episodes' that forces the 'have'
by necessity. 'Episodes' implies plurality of the 'series' by default.
An episode is a series. It's something that is not discrete in time.
It has a time range.
A football match takes a series of minutes to complete.
An epileptic fit or episode also takes a series to complete.
1:1 ratio for series:episode (both are series)
therefore:
episodes is plural, so series should also be plural.
ITSATRAP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY0ClsW1QX4
It's always 'have' in the context given by the OP.
A series of episodes have..
2 series of episodes have..
Last edited by pegasus64128 on Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:21 am Post subject: |
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You used "the" and then you quoted the original post which uses "A"
How are you oscillating between "The" and "A"? It COULD be "a series" if you stuck something in between like "a couple series" or "a few of the series".
However, a (1) series (plural) is wrong. |
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pegasus64128
Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:32 am Post subject: |
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1. A series of episodes has left permanent imprints on their minds.
2. A series of episodes have left permanent imprints on their minds.
From dictionary.com:2. A series of episodes have left permanent imprints on their mind.
Series: "a group or a number of related or similar things, events, etc., arranged or occurring in temporal, spatial, or other order or succession; sequence. "
i.e. it's always something that's made up of something.
A group of cattle are grazing, not is grazing
A list of events are happening.
A number of people are walking...
Episode: "an incident in the course of a series of events, in a person's life or experience, etc.
Music Episode: "an intermediate or digressive passage, especially in a contrapuntal composition."
However, a series can be defined to have one element: A series of integers that can only contain 1 is 1 ...
Then that would be a An episode.
You would still need series in plural form to define more than one episode.
i.e. episodes, so you are left with no choice logically, than to define the series as having more than one element
i.e. A group of cattle have
A number of people have
which implies 'have'
So, the answer is 2:
2. A series of episodes have left permanent imprints on their minds.
Last edited by pegasus64128 on Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:03 am Post subject: |
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Aside from poetry and fictional writing, I cannot see how "a series have" would be correct.
If you wanted "series have" you would need to use "the series".
Imagine you have 3 dogs. You feed 2 of the dogs.
Can you say "I fed a dogs" or "I fed the dogs"? (if you need to use "have", then say "a dogs have collars/fleas" and "the dogs have collars/fleas")
While both are not really good, "the" is the only one that could be correct. Some may argue that it is wrong because it is an absolute statement, therefore it would imply all 3 dogs were fed or have collars/fleas, not just 2.
Can you give an example what you mean which would allow "a ___s" to be true in the real world? I can't think of one.
| Quote: |
2. A series of episodes have left permanent imprints on their mind.
According to my beliefs, I go with continuous therefore my preferred answer is 2. |
I don't fully understand what you mean by continuous. A series is set, even though there isn't a number. If I say "a bus full", it could be a small bus or a big bus, but that bus has a limited number of seats. A series of episodes is complete, a set number of episodes. Even if they add 2 more episodes at the end of the series (notice I said the series), it still means the series is actually 2 more than initially planned.
Can you give an example? |
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pegasus64128
Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
Aside from poetry and fictional writing, I cannot see how "a series" would be correct.
If you wanted "series have" you would need to use "the series".
Imagine you have 3 dogs. You feed 2 of the dogs.
Can you say "I fed a dogs" or "I fed the dogs"? (if you need to use "have", then say "a dogs have collars/fleas" and "the dogs have collars/fleas")
While both are not really good, "the" is the only one that could be correct. Some may argue that it is wrong because it is an absolute statement, therefore it would imply all 3 dogs were fed or have collars/fleas, not just 2.
Can you give an example what you mean which would allow "a ___s" to be true in the real world? I can't think of one.
| Quote: |
2. A series of episodes have left permanent imprints on their mind.
According to my beliefs, I go with continuous therefore my preferred answer is 2. |
I don't fully understand what you mean by continuous. A series is set, even though there isn't a number. If I say "a bus full", it could be a small bus or a big bus, but that bus has a limited number of seats. A series of episodes is complete, a set number of episodes. Even if they add 2 more episodes at the end of the series (notice I said the series), it still means the series is actually 2 more than initially planned.
Can you give an example? |
Yes.
Series always means a group, even if it contains one element. It is defined as being a list by default.
A series of integers that can only contain the number 1 is equal to the number 1,
But you can't have A one episodes (episodes is plural)
So it has to be either a series with more than one element
e.g. a series of numbers that have values that can only be divided by themselves and the number one for example.
OR, lots of series that contain only one element. The word 'A' suggests a singular series with more than one element.
Next,
You can say:
A herd of cattle have moved out of the field.
But you can also say:
A bag of apples has fallen... so it's 'has in that case.
So you're still not there. The series can still force have or has
So, that's when you get to episodes:
Is episodes more like a bag of apples or is it more like a herd of cattle??
A bag is a container - that's where it gets it's singularity
A bag of apples has fallen...
A herd is more like a label - like a name for a group
And that's where you have to define episode.
Is it something that you can contain singularly? Yes!
You could say it's defined by it's start and finish time as a continuous event with an infinite number of discrete (instantaneous) events.
But is it something you need a container for - like 'A bag of apples'?
No. It's fine on its own like a 'herd of cattle;
A series of episodes.. the 'series' is just a label or definition like 'cattle'
'A bunch of episodes were grazing in a field' It doesn't need to be contained by a singular object like a bag.
Therefore, logically at least:
A herd of cattle is more similar to a series of episodes than it is to
a bag of apples
Therefore,
If 'A herd of cattle have moved to another field'
Then 'A series of episodes have...'
There's really no answer but to my mind it makes more sense that an episode in the mental sense, is something that doesn't need be defined by a master container.
Each episode could be different (not in the bag so to speak)
Therefore, episode is more a label of abstraction that we humans use to group things that are not necessarily the same.
Not necessarily the same is key here.
There is nothing in the sentence that suggests the episodes are the same (in the same bag)
so I go with label - A herd of cattle have ..
I have to stop thinking about this lol 
Last edited by pegasus64128 on Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:41 am Post subject: |
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I need to get some sleep. We'll think about this later.
When I see the cattle example, I see "they" replacing. However, "a series of episodes" I only see 1.
If I say "They have have left permanent imprints on their mind.", I am referring to "the episodes" or "the series" as a collective group (like seats on a bus, bus full of), but not "a" series.
I understand maybe you are talking about a recurring event, this isn't continuous though. But, then we are back to the basic TV analogy. An episode recurs each week for a set time.
However, the series by definition is ONLY those episodes. It sounds like you are trying to say some of the episodes in the series, like some of the cattle (a group, not all). The series by definition would be all episodes, like a ranch with THE cattle, not a group.
Last edited by YTMND on Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:51 am; edited 2 times in total |
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pegasus64128
Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
I need to get some sleep. We'll think about this later.
When see the cattle example, I see "they" replacing. However, "a series of episodes" I only see 1.
If I say "They have have left permanent imprints on their mind.", I am referring to "the episodes" or "the series" as a collective group (like seats on a bus), but not "a" series. |
because episodes is plural -> so they.
The sentence specifies 'episodes' not 'episode'
It's confusing. I started out thinking 'episodes' was decisive and it does have a bearing but so too does 'series'.
Laters.
Honestly, it really all just boils down to this afaik:
You can say:
A herd of cattle have moved out of the field.
But you can also say:
A bag of apples has fallen... so it's 'has in that case.
& the question is whether 'A series of episodes' is like the herd or like the bag.
Who knows? It could be an infinite semantic loop! lol
I say it has to do with the discrete vs. continuous definition of 'episode' too
because
'continous' lends itself more towards needing the series to be plural - a herd of cattle.
A continuous episode is like a plural series when you break it down -> events inside events,and that lends itself to 'have'.
Man!
Your edit:
"I understand maybe you are talking about a recurring event, this isn't continuous though. But, then we are back to the basic TV analogy. An episode recurs each week for a set time. "
I should say that I meant continuous in the scientific sense of the word:
i.e. it can be broken up into infinite smaller parts - analogue - continuous
vs. digital - blocky, easily decipherable parts of 1, and 0 - discrete
Honestly, lets just drop the whole thing man. It's confusing.
A school of fish have died.
A number of people are swimming.
A bag of apples has fallen.
A herd of cattle have moved.
It's just semantics in the end. It's impossible to argue definitively unless you can decide on whether 'series' is singular or plural in that sentence
and because of a glitch in English, there is no way to tell with that word, so there is no real way to decide if it's 'has' or 'have'.
It's the same kind of reasoning trying to argue about pi.
The number pi cannot ever end because what you're inherently trying to define the infinite in terms of the finite. It's an infinite spiral. |
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pegasus64128
Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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One more thing:
A series of episodes has/have left permanent imprints on their minds.
their minds -> more than one person -> more than one series of episodes (IMO). I think it's fair to say that each person is experiencing their own episodes, rather than saying the episodes were a shared experience. 'Episodes' to me suggests individual experience in this context, so that would mean it would have to be series in plural form.
This would be like saying a bag of bags (a series of episodes). Why? Because now you have a relationship between the episodes - they're experienced by each mind in the group and so it's implied that the episodes are similar, and they all leave imprints.
Would you say a bag of bags has dropped to the floor? Yes, you would so this argues for 'has' being the correct term.
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A series of episodes has left permanent imprints on their minds.
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Ironically, I'm now arguing that it's the plurality of mind -> minds that
forces us to go with the singular form of have -> has
I think this might be my final answer after much deliberation, but I'm ready to be corrected.
However, if the OP's coworker intentionally defined minds as mind - like a hive mind so to speak - then the above has to be discounted. It's arguable that collective consciousness is real so that's fair in way.
If it's 'mind', then the ambiguity is not solved. Then it's still a matter of whether you see 'a series of episodes have/has' being like 'a number of people have / a herd of cattle have', or 'a bag of apples has'
I would not attempt to explain any of this to your coworker OP.
I would simply tell him/her that it's an irregular noun, and you can chose either 'has' or 'have'. Both are acceptable in this case.
I would not tell him/her that both are acceptable in the general case, as it's a duct-tape solution. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| their minds -> more than one person -> more than one series of episodes (IMO). |
I colored a dozen eggs different colors, as opposed to all eggs known to man (I'll address this later). Each is a different color, but they are all part of one singular unit called a dozen. If there are 2 dozen eggs in the fridge, "the dozen" with my initials are mine, not "a dozen" are mine. This would imply there is another dozen eggs with my initials that are NOT mine. The total is THE total, not a total. 2 + 2 = the 4 not the (3+1) and the (1.5 + 2.5). The total addresses the end, completion (again, I will address this later).
| Quote: |
| This would be like saying a bag of bags (a series of episodes) |
That sounds like imaginary math. I could then say 1 + 2 = 18 because I decided 1 meant 6. If we want to do that, normally we create a new word like "dozen" or in this case relate to it as "half a dozen". We don't start out with a singular identity then transform it to plural.
So, I was trying to think of a way to explain this (at least my point of view because I can't rationally accept "a series" unless it is in some poem or fictional writing (or a journalist's article to emphasize something NOT real".)
Ok, now for my reasoning of all/total.
On the way to school today, I saw a kite caught in a tree. Could I say "A tree full of branches caught a kite while it was in the air."?
The fact is if some of the lower branches weren't there, the kite would have still gotten caught in the upper branches. SOME branches caught the kite, SOME didn't nor did "a branches". However, when we speak in terms of the tree (or series), THE tree caught the kite (those are our episodes).
If this were put in future tense, then possibly, "a tree will catch a kite (eventually)". We don't know which. Similarly, A series of episodes will be experienced. In this case it is speculation if we say "the". However, if it is in the past, we don't need to guess or show uncertainty.
Perhaps, this is what psychics are for. They know what happened (like in a murder), but there is no evidence. Other than that, sorry, I still think "the" is wrong outside poems, fiction, and psychics. |
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pegasus64128
Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
| Quote: |
| their minds -> more than one person -> more than one series of episodes (IMO). |
I colored a dozen eggs different colors, as opposed to all eggs known to man (I'll address this later). Each is a different color, but they are all part of one singular unit called a dozen. If there are 2 dozen eggs in the fridge, "the dozen" with my initials are mine, not "a dozen" are mine. This would imply there is another dozen eggs with my initials that are NOT mine. |
The 'the' in that case is just to identify the eggs as being already quantified or determined.
'A' can also be used if signify something when it is undetermined or unquantified.
i.e. A herd of cattle came down the mountain. ('A' is used as it's undetermined)
Then the herd went into the field. ('The' herd has been identified now, and it's obvious that there's one and only one herd we're talking about)
| YTMND wrote: |
That sounds like imaginary math.
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It's to do with 'imaginary' set theory if anything, if you want to see it as mathematical.
| YTMND wrote: |
So, I was trying to think of a way to explain this (at least my point of view because I can't rationally accept "a series" unless it is in some poem or fictional writing (or a journalist's article to emphasize something NOT real".) |
'Series' is often used with 'A' or 'An'
A geometric series, an arithmetic series...
The lack of an adjective doesn't suddenly invalidate that.
http://plus.maths.org/content/infinite-series-surprises
I don't think you have read what I was trying to say.
I'm not overly concerned with 'A/An'
As I already demonstrated, you can say a herd of cattle, and herd is a plural form much like series. Or a school of fish:
'A' school of fish have been sighted in the river.
Then 'the' school of fish was caught.
The point I think you're trying to make is that 'deer' and 'fish' are other examples of irregular nouns.
You can't say 'A deer' is plural, and you can't say 'A fish' is plural,
but lets face it you can't compare either of the above to a 'series'.
Nobody says 'a fish of episodes, or a 'deer of episodes'
If anyone has a definitive solution to this, feel free to enlighten me.
Would you say 'a flock of pigeon'? No of course not, it's 'pigeons'.
As I said, there's no point arguing this really.
'series' as you said is the same in singular and in plural (unfortunately) so it's impossible to be sure unless the context is very specific:
E.g.
A single arithmetic series is such that .... (singular)
The two series have both been cancelled ... (plural)
As you said, you wouldn't say 'A series' unless it's singular.
It would be 'the series' or '2 series' etc.
But that's not the point. The point is that 'series' is already inherently plural. It's a series. It's more like 'a herd', or 'a school' or 'a flock' etc.
The definition of 'flock', or 'herd' etc. much more closely resembles the definition of 'series', than 'fish' or 'deer' or other irregular nouns like that do.
This explains it better than I can maybe:
http://www.learnenglish.de/grammar/nouncollective.htm
It's British vs. American English.
Because the OP's sentence isn't pre-loaded with the definition of it being an English or American-English sentence, you can't be sure, you can only speculate.
My recommendation to the OP is the same:
I would simply tell him/her that it's an irregular noun, and you can chose either 'has' or 'have'. Both are acceptable in this case.
But to keep it more logical, I'd go with 'has' myself personally (and for the sake of sanity) in the context of the OP's sentence. |
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WI-Do
Joined: 01 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Thank you everyone for the responses. I've explained to my co-worker that it's a stylistic choice and that Americans tend to prefer the former and Brits the latter. I've also said that Americans are more likely to accept either one in speaking because of the proximity principle, but that in American writing some readers may be sticklers for subject-verb agreement. |
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