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Using pronouns properly for advanced adult students
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YTMND

Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:24 pm Post subject:

Quote:

England IS one team.

No, the soccer team for England is one team. (football for my mates)
No, the basketball team for England is one team.

2 and more.

pegasus64128

Joined: 20 Aug 2011

Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:44 pm Post subject:

The Cosmic Hum wrote:

...
'Why was her idea chosen?' - (her � possessive determiner)
'Why was hers chosen? (hers - possessive case)

Another confusing aspect is with the usage of �her�

�her� can be both possessive determiner and a pronoun - objective case
This is her idea. (her � possessive determiner)
Talk to her about the idea. (her � pronoun - objective case)
vs
This is his idea. (his � possessive determiner)
Talk to him about the idea. (him � pronoun - objective case)

I know this isn�t specifically what you asked about�but can be good to point out to your advanced students�just thought it was worth mentioning.
Hope it helps.

You have to be careful about introducing additional material as it can confuse students but it is relevant.

I would break it up into the possessive case, and advanced pronouns, and cover both separately. Only then would I dare to get into advanced possessive and non possessive pronouns.

Fat_Elvis

Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: In the ghetto

Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 10:20 am Post subject:

When I taught this (anaphoric referencing) I was teaching restaurants. I got one group to write a sentence about a restaurant or type of food in Korea at the top of a piece of paper e.g "XX restaurant is the best restaurant in Seoul". They then passed it to another group who had to continue the piece using a pronoun e.g. "It always has great food and service". Pass it on again and continue. It's kind of writing focussed, but you could adapt it to speaking e.g sts sit in a circle, one person says the first sentence, the next continues the topic using a pronoun referring back to the original statement. Koreans are a little clueless when it comes to pronouns as they just don't use them as much in Korean.

comm

Joined: 22 Jun 2010

Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:02 pm Post subject:

YTMND wrote:

No, the soccer team for England is one team. (football for my mates)
No, the basketball team for England is one team.

2 and more.

So if we're watching a game between the football team representing England and the football team representing Spain... THEN we can say "England is doing well in this game"? Please? Because it's one team?

YTMND

Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 9:12 pm Post subject:

comm wrote:

YTMND wrote:

No, the soccer team for England is one team. (football for my mates)
No, the basketball team for England is one team.

2 and more.

You would never say that in a real setting. England doesn't have just 1 team, and I am sure it's the same with Spain.

In the example you gave, look at http://www.insidehoops.com/blog/?p=487 "Team USA are clearly a favorite"

comm

Joined: 22 Jun 2010

Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 11:33 pm Post subject:

YTMND wrote:

comm wrote:

Yes, I would easily refer to "England" in that setting and the meaning would be quite clear.
That link is exactly what I'm talking about. Why treat a single team as a plural? The author isn't referring to multiple "Team USAs", so why in the hell would it be "Team USA are clearly a favorite"? They're referring to one "Team USA", it should be "Team USA is clearly a favorite". There's no reason we should treat teams and bands as special cases.

YTMND

Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 1:13 am Post subject:

Quote:

There's no reason we should treat teams and bands as special cases.

Try this line of thinking:

Sentence 1: "My family is great."
Sentence 2: "They are clearly smart people."

In sentence 1, "family" is a singular unit. In sentence 2, "family" is referred to as being more than one individual (third person plural).

We could also change the team sentence and say, "They are clearly a favorite."

We aren't treating teams and bands any different than other groups like families.

comm

Joined: 22 Jun 2010

Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 5:35 pm Post subject:

YTMND wrote:

In sentence 1, "family" is a singular unit. In sentence 2, "family" is referred to as being more than one individual (third person plural).

We could also change the team sentence and say, "They are clearly a favorite."

We aren't treating teams and bands any different than other groups like families.

Absolutely.
Using the word "They" makes it clear that you're referencing a group through its members and is therefore plural.

So by your logic, we can say:
My family is great.
They are smart people.
and
Team England is great.
They are talented players.

But you wouldn't say:
My family are great.
or
Team England are great.

atwood

Joined: 26 Dec 2009

Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 7:01 pm Post subject:

Enigma wrote:

Okay thanks for all the replies, everybody. Some of those ideas should be great for my lower classes.
However, I think I should have been more clear in my OP. I'm specifically looking for help with the more advanced pronoun replacements. So to repeat the example I gave in my first post:

e.g. She really enjoyed her time in Australia. ---> She really enjoyed it.

My high level students are mostly okay with replacing names and concrete things with pronouns - it's more ideas and situations that are a problem.

Another example:

"What did you think of what John said at the meeting?"
"That/It was the stupidest thing I ever heard."

Anyways, those ideas given above will definitely be useful for my lower classes, but I'd still appreciate any other suggestions for the more advanced substitutions.

Thanks again

Either that or it is correct. I'd use that, but others might use it.

But they're never going to get that. They're never going to get it.

It's too contextual. That kind of difference is too contextual.

But I digress.

YTMND

Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:48 pm Post subject:

Quote:

But you wouldn't say:
My family are great.
or
Team England are great.

My = singular (not our family or their family)
Team England = They = plural

YTMND

Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:52 pm Post subject:

Quote:

But they're never going to get that. They're never going to get it.

It's too contextual. That kind of difference is too contextual.

Then repeat. Eventually they will get it.

comm

Joined: 22 Jun 2010

Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 9:28 pm Post subject:

YTMND wrote:

Quote:

But you wouldn't say:
My family are great.
or
Team England are great.

My = singular (not our family or their family)
Team England = They = plural

But there isn't more than one "Team England", so "is" is better than "are".
You wouldn't say "This team are favored to win" and by the same logic, you shouldn't say "Team England are favored to win".

YTMND

Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 10:12 pm Post subject:

comm wrote:

YTMND wrote:

Quote:

But you wouldn't say:
My family are great.
or
Team England are great.

My = singular (not our family or their family)
Team England = They = plural

But there isn't more than one "Team England", so "is" is better than "are".

Team England = They

"Parents are strict."

Whose parents?

"Parents of John."

They is strict? / They are strict?

John only has 2 parents.

Quote:

You wouldn't say "This team are favored to win" and by the same logic, you shouldn't say "Team England are favored to win".

And you wouldn't say, "This box are delicious.", but you could say, "Chocolates in this box are delicious", and by the same logic, you should say, "Team England in this game are favored to win".

comm

Joined: 22 Jun 2010

Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 10:20 pm Post subject:

YTMND wrote:

Quote:

You wouldn't say "This team are favored to win"

And you wouldn't say, "This box are delicious.", but you could say, "Chocolates in this box are delicious" and by the same logic, you should say "Team England in this game are favored to win".

Absolutely not. "Chocolates" is plural, therefore "are delicious".
In that analogy, "Team England" is the same as the box and the players are the same as the chocolates. You could say "The players on Team England are favored to win" but "Team England" is singular, just like your box of chocolates.

Last edited by comm on Sat May 12, 2012 10:24 pm; edited 2 times in total

YTMND

Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 10:22 pm Post subject:

comm wrote:

"Team England" is the same as the box

No, Team England and the players ARE one in the same. They are the players!!

The game is more like the box.

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