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Dave Chance
Joined: 30 May 2011
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 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| goreality wrote: |
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A bit of advice: try reading a bit more carefully. Being less flippant might also go down better with those trying to have a reasonable discussion about a pretty weighty topic.
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You should take your own advice. My point was simply there is such thing as a indirect correlation. If you want to have a reasonable discussion stop posting random un related articles and edit the subject of this thread to make it relevant to the discussion, original post or anything for that matter. |
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South Korean police identified the 35-year-old only as Mr Bang. He killed himself in the southern province of Jeolla on March 10 by locking himself in his car and lighting a brazier of charcoal briquettes. The note he left was stark: �I am tormented by my debts.� His final words, an expression of personal suffering, reflect the troubles of the nation.
What's more relevant, indirect or direct correlation? I guess the fact that the IMF was a direct outcome of the Bretton Woods conference is too much of a stretch as well, huh. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Well you do seem to be postulating that the I.M.F was created to cause debt and suicide in Korea. Are you saying that the one cause of debt in Korea is the I.M.F. or that it is the single cause of suicide?? No system or institution will work perfectly for every person and every situation. perhaps Korea is not a good example for your idea since the korean economy has boomed, under globaliazation and the Bretton woods outline. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
| Well you do seem to be postulating that the I.M.F was created to cause debt and suicide in Korea. Are you saying that the one cause of debt in Korea is the I.M.F. or that it is the single cause of suicide?? No system or institution will work perfectly for every person and every situation. perhaps Korea is not a good example for your idea since the korean economy has boomed, under globaliazation and the Bretton woods outline. |
Korea is an awful example for Dave Chance's thesis. The IMF read Korea the riot act, and to its great credit, Korea heeded and conducted itself accordingly. It recovered comparatively quickly. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Chance wrote: |
| goreality wrote: |
| Quote: |
A bit of advice: try reading a bit more carefully. Being less flippant might also go down better with those trying to have a reasonable discussion about a pretty weighty topic.
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You should take your own advice. My point was simply there is such thing as a indirect correlation. If you want to have a reasonable discussion stop posting random un related articles and edit the subject of this thread to make it relevant to the discussion, original post or anything for that matter. |
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South Korean police identified the 35-year-old only as Mr Bang. He killed himself in the southern province of Jeolla on March 10 by locking himself in his car and lighting a brazier of charcoal briquettes. The note he left was stark: �I am tormented by my debts.� His final words, an expression of personal suffering, reflect the troubles of the nation.
What's more relevant, indirect or direct correlation? I guess the fact that the IMF was a direct outcome of the Bretton Woods conference is too much of a stretch as well, huh.[/quote]
And you KNOW that this person would NOT have taken on debts without the IMF? That this person took on debts BECAUSE of the IMF? |
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Dave Chance
Joined: 30 May 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| rollo wrote: |
| Well you do seem to be postulating that the I.M.F was created to cause debt and suicide in Korea. Are you saying that the one cause of debt in Korea is the I.M.F. or that it is the single cause of suicide?? No system or institution will work perfectly for every person and every situation. perhaps Korea is not a good example for your idea since the korean economy has boomed, under globaliazation and the Bretton woods outline. |
Korea is an awful example for Dave Chance's thesis. The IMF read Korea the riot act, and to its great credit, Korea heeded and conducted itself accordingly. It recovered comparatively quickly. |
I've chosen Korea precisely because although Korea followed IMF's directions to the letter like an obedient Confucian student, the common people have ended up in their current dillemna on account of the fact that IMF policies are written by and practiced for heads of state and business. The article cited at the beginning of this thread makes it clear that corporate business has gone up (hence flashy business news page numbers) on the backs of cuts in wages, full-time jobs, etc. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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How's the standard of living changed over the past 100 years in Korea? Lifespan? Incomes?
Face it, Korea isn't all that bad off. I'd rather be lower income Korean now, than one fifty or more years ago. |
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Dave Chance
Joined: 30 May 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
How's the standard of living changed over the past 100 years in Korea? Lifespan? Incomes?
Face it, Korea isn't all that bad off. I'd rather be lower income Korean now, than one fifty or more years ago. |
Easy to sit back and say.
Try living on say $1200-$1500 with the modern day 'spec' expectations for your kid (not much to say for future prospects without attendance at competitive hagwons) and your wife wanting to keep up appearances with the I-Phones, brand goods, et al. of today.
Try saying this to the multitudes living under the daily duress of credit card debt. Sure they're living longer (well those who don't end it prematurely), but are they really living? Living to slave away ridiculous hours for a reduced wage? Living to study your nads off only to be told there aren't many decent jobs to be had? Meanwhile corporate heads live it up in room salons off of profits gleaned from glorious 'restructuring,' preying on young woman who weren't able to or didn't see the point in competing in the 'You've managed to jump through all the hoops we've set before you' game.
No doubt 50 years ago Korea was a disaster, so almost anything is better in comparison. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:12 am Post subject: |
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south korea was one of the 25 poorest countries earth in 1955. so it seems to have done well during the Bretton Woods era. What dilemma? Korea weathered the Asian crisis very well, is still a growing economy and has a high standard of living and decent social services. What are you comparing South korea to? Perhaps we could compare it to a nation like North korea which was spared the brutality of the Bretton Woods system. You are looking at a small period of an economic cycle and extrapalating from that the the system was an overall failure and you have not shown how the I.M.F. or Bretton Woods has anything to do with changes in employment. There are many factors that cause changes in employment and economic circumstances , you can not in honesty focus on one or one sliver of time and judge how the Bretton Woods scheme has impacted South Korea.
The only way to present your argument is to show a country that is not under Bretton Woods and show how it has out performed South Korea economically. North Korea would be an example and maybe you can show how starvation is a sign of a booming economy. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Chance wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
How's the standard of living changed over the past 100 years in Korea? Lifespan? Incomes?
Face it, Korea isn't all that bad off. I'd rather be lower income Korean now, than one fifty or more years ago. |
Easy to sit back and say.
Try living on say $1200-$1500 with the modern day 'spec' expectations for your kid (not much to say for future prospects without attendance at competitive hagwons) and your wife wanting to keep up appearances with the I-Phones, brand goods, et al. of today. |
That's a choice. I know a number of middle class people that choose not to have iPhones and the like. Smartphones are not mandatory, and I'm surprised you'd bother to put that in here.
| Quote: |
| Try saying this to the multitudes living under the daily duress of credit card debt. Sure they're living longer (well those who don't end it prematurely), but are they really living? Living to slave away ridiculous hours for a reduced wage? Living to study your nads off only to be told there aren't many decent jobs to be had? Meanwhile corporate heads live it up in room salons off of profits gleaned from glorious 'restructuring,' preying on young woman who weren't able to or didn't see the point in competing in the 'You've managed to jump through all the hoops we've set before you' game. |
hahaha - that is quite the slant. Sounds like you live in Gotham or something.
You're right - this is an evil and wicked place where no one can succeed!
Oh, the humanity!!?!
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My (Korean) family is not rich. No one in the family owns any company... or any buildings. They're all workers of one sort or another.
And ya know what, out of all of the aunts and uncles and cousins... it's a varied lot of success. Some have debts, some have (mild) riches. Some enjoy their jobs, some struggle. Some are healthy, some are not.
Most of it can be tracked down to choices.
Cousin A has spent the last 15 years floating from one job to another, wanting to be a minister one day, and an entrepreneur the next. Spending money on drinking with his buddies as he 'networks'.
Cousin B, his younger brother, got an entry level job at a small company, stuck with it, and has slowly moved up.
Guess which one has lots of debt and moved back home? Guess which one has health problems? Guess which one had his wife leave him for a bit?
But in your mind, it's all about the IMF and global bad guys.
People need to take responsibility for their own choices.
There is no Gotham... just real life. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Chance wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| rollo wrote: |
| Well you do seem to be postulating that the I.M.F was created to cause debt and suicide in Korea. Are you saying that the one cause of debt in Korea is the I.M.F. or that it is the single cause of suicide?? No system or institution will work perfectly for every person and every situation. perhaps Korea is not a good example for your idea since the korean economy has boomed, under globaliazation and the Bretton woods outline. |
Korea is an awful example for Dave Chance's thesis. The IMF read Korea the riot act, and to its great credit, Korea heeded and conducted itself accordingly. It recovered comparatively quickly. |
I've chosen Korea precisely because although Korea followed IMF's directions to the letter like an obedient Confucian student, the common people have ended up in their current dillemna on account of the fact that IMF policies are written by and practiced for heads of state and business. The article cited at the beginning of this thread makes it clear that corporate business has gone up (hence flashy business news page numbers) on the backs of cuts in wages, full-time jobs, etc. |
How do you connect the IMF crisis and its recovery to very recent (2010-2011) increases in inequality?
You honestly can't. |
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Dave Chance
Joined: 30 May 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Dave Chance wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| rollo wrote: |
| Well you do seem to be postulating that the I.M.F was created to cause debt and suicide in Korea. Are you saying that the one cause of debt in Korea is the I.M.F. or that it is the single cause of suicide?? No system or institution will work perfectly for every person and every situation. perhaps Korea is not a good example for your idea since the korean economy has boomed, under globaliazation and the Bretton woods outline. |
Korea is an awful example for Dave Chance's thesis. The IMF read Korea the riot act, and to its great credit, Korea heeded and conducted itself accordingly. It recovered comparatively quickly. |
I've chosen Korea precisely because although Korea followed IMF's directions to the letter like an obedient Confucian student, the common people have ended up in their current dillemna on account of the fact that IMF policies are written by and practiced for heads of state and business. The article cited at the beginning of this thread makes it clear that corporate business has gone up (hence flashy business news page numbers) on the backs of cuts in wages, full-time jobs, etc. |
How do you connect the IMF crisis and its recovery to very recent (2010-2011) increases in inequality?
You honestly can't. |
Inequality of the sort we're talking about in Korea didn't just sprout out of the ground unannounced in 2010-2011. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:15 am Post subject: |
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| So you figure Korea was a bastion of equality through its history?? |
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Spartacist
Joined: 18 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
People need to take responsibility for their own choices.
There is no Gotham... just real life. |
The options available to someone born into a chaebol-owning family are vastly different from one born into the poorest parts of society though. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Spartacist wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
People need to take responsibility for their own choices.
There is no Gotham... just real life. |
The options available to someone born into a chaebol-owning family are vastly different from one born into the poorest parts of society though. |
Yes. But I'm sure you'd also agree that the chaebol are not creations of the IMF. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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Dear lord the horror iof inequalityMy best friend in high school was blessed with lightning reflexes the muscles of a god spent nine years in the N.B.A. e it must be the I.M.F.'s fault that he is a millionare and I am not.
it is hard to take you serious Dave, South Korea is the poster child of the success of the Bretton woods system. |
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