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figshdg
Joined: 01 May 2012
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 Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Unless you have actual facts to support this, then you have no basis to comment on what cabs do all day, on how busy they are. Seriously, just because you see taxis waiting it does not follow they are spending half their day sitting around waiting. A lot of their day would logically be taken up by driving fares around and cruising busy areas for yet more fares in between calls. |
Unless you have actual facts to support this, then you have no basis to comment on what cabs do all day, or how busy they are (you meant or, right?). Or does only your understanding and experience count? |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Fine, then if its too expensive people can walk home after midnight. Or they can buy their own car. Or they can ride a bicycle.
During the day they can take the subway or the bus.
But please spare me this "woe is me" 800 won crap. As I said, if 800 won is breaking your bank you can't afford to be on this website. Turn off your computer and save some electricity. Start growing vegetables in your laundry area. |
LOL! Recently, you used the argument that forcing bus drivers to obey traffic laws in favor of child safety would result in an increase in fares to which most people would object.
You are one flakey flip flopper. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Unless you have actual facts to support this, then you have no basis to comment on what cabs do all day, on how busy they are. Seriously, just because you see taxis waiting it does not follow they are spending half their day sitting around waiting. A lot of their day would logically be taken up by driving fares around and cruising busy areas for yet more fares in between calls. |
I haven't seen any facts provided to support it either way. What I can say is that the day the taxis were off the road was great. Everyone still got around. The buses could make right hand turns with ease and pull into bus stops without issue. Pedestrians had full use of all crosswalks.
If they are fully engaged during the day they're making a pretty decent buck. Based on some recent fares and extrapolating for time taken they could be pulling 40-50k/hour and it isn't costing them that much in fuel or even maintenance. If they're staying much less busy than that and thus pulling in much less then it means we have too many cabs. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| figshdg wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Unless you have actual facts to support this, then you have no basis to comment on what cabs do all day, on how busy they are. Seriously, just because you see taxis waiting it does not follow they are spending half their day sitting around waiting. A lot of their day would logically be taken up by driving fares around and cruising busy areas for yet more fares in between calls. |
Unless you have actual facts to support this, then you have no basis to comment on what cabs do all day, or how busy they are (you meant or, right?). Or does only your understanding and experience count? |
That is EXACTLY the point I was making...thanks.
oh and to be clear NO my perception of cabs is no more valid than yours or someone else who has not dug deeper or possibly worked as a taxi driver or with taxi drivers. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Unless you have actual facts to support this, then you have no basis to comment on what cabs do all day, on how busy they are. Seriously, just because you see taxis waiting it does not follow they are spending half their day sitting around waiting. A lot of their day would logically be taken up by driving fares around and cruising busy areas for yet more fares in between calls. |
I haven't seen any facts provided to support it either way. What I can say is that the day the taxis were off the road was great. Everyone still got around. The buses could make right hand turns with ease and pull into bus stops without issue. Pedestrians had full use of all crosswalks.
If they are fully engaged during the day they're making a pretty decent buck. Based on some recent fares and extrapolating for time taken they could be pulling 40-50k/hour and it isn't costing them that much in fuel or even maintenance. If they're staying much less busy than that and thus pulling in much less then it means we have too many cabs. |
There are ways to ease traffic flow and keep taxis on the road. Taxis fill a very real need in Korea. Cities could (somehave already done this) dedicate traffic lanes to buses and taxis. That will help the flow of traffic tremendously.
As for the number of taxis, there may indeed be too many around but then again I would think that those taxis that do not make money just go out of business eventually. Hence, those that are on the roads must be earning for their owners. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
There are ways to ease traffic flow and keep taxis on the road. Taxis fill a very real need in Korea. Cities could (somehave already done this) dedicate traffic lanes to buses and taxis. That will help the flow of traffic tremendously.
As for the number of taxis, there may indeed be too many around but then again I would think that those taxis that do not make money just go out of business eventually. Hence, those that are on the roads must be earning for their owners. |
I don't know about that. They're obviously making enough money to keep these people from living on the street, but not as much as they "think" they should get.
Frugal Koreans can live on very little. Especially these older guys, that's how they were brought up. it might just be if you cut 20% of the cabs, the rest of the cabs would see enough of an increase to raise their standard of living to something acceptable without really impacting service or prices.
They're obviously making money or they would be out of business, they're just not making what they think is enough.
Let's just spitball some numbers:
If a taxi driver works a 12 hour shift (I'd say fairly reasonable) and has 45 fares a day. (4ish an hour), let's say they work 20 days a month, but I'd guess maybe more), that's an extra 720,000 on base fares alone. If these taxi drivers were in the whole for that money, they wouldn't be able to keep losing that every month for too long. the money is less if they don't have that many fares, but I'd say if they don't, then they aren't working hard enough.
Not to mention this only benefits them on short fares. Which means they are probably going to push for additional per distance/time fares as well. If it was truly about fuel costs, then they'd need to compensate for the whole journey. Not just the pick up. |
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nathanrutledge
Joined: 01 May 2008
Location: Marakesh
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
There are ways to ease traffic flow and keep taxis on the road. Taxis fill a very real need in Korea. Cities could (somehave already done this) dedicate traffic lanes to buses and taxis. That will help the flow of traffic tremendously.
As for the number of taxis, there may indeed be too many around but then again I would think that those taxis that do not make money just go out of business eventually. Hence, those that are on the roads must be earning for their owners. |
I don't know about that. They're obviously making enough money to keep these people from living on the street, but not as much as they "think" they should get.
Frugal Koreans can live on very little. Especially these older guys, that's how they were brought up. it might just be if you cut 20% of the cabs, the rest of the cabs would see enough of an increase to raise their standard of living to something acceptable without really impacting service or prices.
They're obviously making money or they would be out of business, they're just not making what they think is enough.
Let's just spitball some numbers:
If a taxi driver works a 12 hour shift (I'd say fairly reasonable) and has 45 fares a day. (4ish an hour), let's say they work 20 days a month, but I'd guess maybe more), that's an extra 720,000 on base fares alone. If these taxi drivers were in the whole for that money, they wouldn't be able to keep losing that every month for too long. the money is less if they don't have that many fares, but I'd say if they don't, then they aren't working hard enough.
Not to mention this only benefits them on short fares. Which means they are probably going to push for additional per distance/time fares as well. If it was truly about fuel costs, then they'd need to compensate for the whole journey. Not just the pick up. |
Except taxi drivers work 24 hour shifts.
http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2948713
I'm not going to condemn the taxi drivers - they work crap hours and make crap pay. BUT, as steel rails always likes to point out that 800 won won't break the bank (he made the same argument back when they were increasing the bus and subway fare), I must again point out it's not the 800 won taxi fare increase that will break the bank.
It's the taxi, plus the bus, plus the subway, plus the beer, plus the fruits and vegetables, plus the rent, plus the electricity, plus the water, plus the gas, plus EVERY SINGLE THING THAT PEOPLE BUY THAT IS INCREASING IN PRICE THAT WILL BREAK THE BANK.
The government has been working to keep prices down, but it looks like KEPCO is getting its wish to raise rates - still below the actual cost of production - by about 10-12% this month. And the subway and bus fares just went up. This terrible weather worldwide means that food prices, which have already increased by about 14% over a 5 month period from November to April of this year, will climb even more.
Yes, taxi rates need to increase to keep up with the price of fuel. A 2013 Hyundai Sonata gets about 9 km per liter. The proportion of the fuel cost to the fare depends on the distance traveled. If you only go the two kilometers that the base fare gets you, then you're only burning about 1/4 of a liter, or 500 won, or 20.8% of the cost goes towards fuel. This means that if we were to pay the difference in the price of fuel (as the paper suggests), we'd need to pay 100 won more, NOT 800 won as they are suggesting.
If you go further, you pay 100 won per 144 meters, so if you went 4800 won worth, you're going to cover a distance of 5.456 km, burning approximately 1212 won. This breaks down to 25% of the total price, and a rate increase of 242 won is needed here.
Of course, let's be realistic. NOBODY ever gets to go their route 100% of the time moving, so in reality, you pay for time when the cab is idling, burning virtually nothing compared to moving.
Long story short, they want a rate increase of 800 won and claim it's about the fuel. This is total BS. They SHOULD get a raise to cover costs of living, but at the same time, I'M not getting a COLA adjustment and by paying more across the board as we all are, raising cab fares just means that the cycle will continue.
http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2957328
http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2957928&cloc=joongangdaily%7Chome%7Cnewslist1
http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/Article.aspx?aid=2951007
http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2952241&cloc=rss%7Cnews%7Cjoongangdaily |
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viciousdinosaur
Joined: 30 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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Why are we arguing whether they should or should not do it? Of course they have the right to charge whatever they want.
The real issue is the consequence of their action. A raise in rates will result in a decrease use of taxis. Basic supply in demand. This is turn will lead to a drop in employment. Cab drivers are accepting the fact that to increase the standard of living for some of them the rest will lose their jobs.
The other consequence is you'll see more people looking to buy cars. So more cars on the road. |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
If they are fully engaged during the day they're making a pretty decent buck. Based on some recent fares and extrapolating for time taken they could be pulling 40-50k/hour and it isn't costing them that much in fuel or even maintenance. |
I believe a few months ago, the Wall Street Journal reported that taxi cab drivers in Seoul make about 1.3 million won per month and they often work more than 12 hours a day. That seems to jib with what taxi drivers have told me when I chat with them.
They really do have hard lives. I remember looking at the four year old driver's photo for one particular cab driver. He dressed really quite nicely in a suit and tie and looked very much like a distinguished college professor. Four years of driving later, I looked at the driver and he still had his suit on, but he was a wreck like he just spent the past year in a concentration camp. The guy lost all his youth, vitality, and actually seemed to have shrunk as his suit seemed two sizes too big for him now. I never felt so bad for a taxi driver before. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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There you go, that's all the proof you need that there are too many taxis. If these people need to work 24 hour shifts to make ends meet, it means they're spending a significant portion of that shift not working. The math just doesn't add up otherwise. If a taxi driver is reasonably busy, he's probably making all right money for a Korean.
Let's say you averaged 4 x 5000won fares an hour. Not too far, and not driving all the time.
About 6 km/trip (distance not time)
24km/hr would mean about 2.5 liters of fuel.
20-5 fuel (15,000won/hour)
if you were working 24 hour shifts that's 360,000/day
or about 8.6 million won a month working 6 days a week (if they're working that long they probably aren't taking much time off)
If that were the case though, all the taxi drivers would be living in pretty decent houses and not remotely having any trouble with the cost of living. Even working 12 hour shifts they'd be doing quite well at 4.3 million a month which is a pretty decent salary for a Korean.
One has to assume that isn't the case and they aren't getting that many fares, so if they're not, it means there are too many taxis. The article says 30% are working 24 hour shifts, I'd say that's a good number to start with removing.
| Quote: |
| I believe a few months ago, the Wall Street Journal reported that taxi cab drivers in Seoul make about 1.3 million won per month and they often work more than 12 hours a day. That seems to jib with what taxi drivers have told me when I chat with them. |
Was writing the above when you wrote that, further evidence that they're sitting around most of the day, because cost vs income doesn't add up for a busy driver. I stand by my original statement. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
There you go, that's all the proof you need that there are too many taxis. If these people need to work 24 hour shifts to make ends meet, it means they're spending a significant portion of that shift not working. The math just doesn't add up otherwise. If a taxi driver is reasonably busy, he's probably making all right money for a Korean.
Let's say you averaged 4 x 5000won fares an hour. Not too far, and not driving all the time.
About 6 km/trip (distance not time)
24km/hr would mean about 2.5 liters of fuel.
20-5 fuel (15,000won/hour)
if you were working 24 hour shifts that's 360,000/day
or about 8.6 million won a month working 6 days a week (if they're working that long they probably aren't taking much time off)
If that were the case though, all the taxi drivers would be living in pretty decent houses and not remotely having any trouble with the cost of living. Even working 12 hour shifts they'd be doing quite well at 4.3 million a month which is a pretty decent salary for a Korean.
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Taxi drivers do have other expenses though. For example
| Quote: |
Impatient Driving Habits
Korean taxi drivers haul ass. And when they're not hauling ass, they're riding the brake and you are kissing the back of the front seat or side window. And you will hear honking everywhere of all different sounds. Taxi drivers who drive company-owned taxis are even more compelled to haul ass, as they run on shifts and each driver must deposit a certain amount, before they can start earning their personal income. |
http://wiki.galbijim.com/Taxi#Taxi_Culture_in_Korea
And from the article linked above
| Quote: |
| Generally, taxi companies have two drivers for one cab who switch over after 12-hour shifts, but with the decrease in the number of cab drivers, some cab drivers double their shifts under the condition that they hand over earnings from both shifts to the company |
So while they may be making a lot of money most of it is probably eaten up by company charges.
| Quote: |
| As the cab drivers generally scrape together two to three hours of sleep a night and work more than 17 hours seated stationary in a confined space, their health can deteriorate and accidents are more likely to happen as their concentration level drops off due to exhaustion. But in order to be able to pay the commissions to their companies, these cab drivers, like Kim and Lee, continue to push themselves |
(bolding mine) |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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If they're handing over 60-80% of their salary to the company, they're idiots, and an 800 won increase isn't going to fix that.
Because you're looking at a 3 million won difference a month between someone who is busy every hour and what the apparent take home is. If it's commission they shouldn't be striking about fuel prices. |
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viciousdinosaur
Joined: 30 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| What I don't get is cabbies who turn down fares or drive right by you on the road (if you have a bag). If they really are idle a good portion of the day, wouldn't they jump at any fare? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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I doubt 800 won more per fare will impact the number of customers to a significant degree.
Looking at consumer behavior it will affect A)People in a very narrow bracket who take a cab daily and the impact of 800 will push them either to the bus or the subway. B) People who want to catch a cab, check the money in their pocket and deduce that they don't have enough and are too lazy to walk to an ATM.
In return you get 800 more per fare. Sounds like a profitable decision to me.
| Quote: |
| I know you probably think the world only revolves around you and the money you have in your pocket, but there is a great big world out there full of all kinds of people. People of all kinds of socio economic backgrounds may need to take a taxi at any time for wide variety of reasons. Even in situations where a bus or subway isn't an acceptable alternative. There are actually people below middle class. You are aware of that right? That's why it's called middle class... |
Fine, they can walk. The taxi doesn't exist to serve them. The taxi exists to generate profit.
| Quote: |
| Improve your business and stop expecting people to bail you out because you don't want to work to the markets. |
This isn't a bailout. This is a rate increase. Entitlenomics need not apply. |
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dairyairy
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| viciousdinosaur wrote: |
| What I don't get is cabbies who turn down fares or drive right by you on the road (if you have a bag). If they really are idle a good portion of the day, wouldn't they jump at any fare? |
I wonder about that, too. Why not pick up everyone they can at all times? |
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