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newb
Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Location: Korea
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 Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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My final advise to the OP, do whatever is in the best interest for YOURSELF.
In most cases in Korea, telling the whole truth doesn't pay. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| What's dishonest? The law permits the employee to leave without notice. All the OP has to do is advise the employer he's leaving. The contracted benefits for not fulfilling the term (length) of the contract are forfeited of course. That's the legal protection for the employer. |
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kinship
Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| newb wrote: |
My final advise to the OP, do whatever is in the best interest for YOURSELF.
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That is a cop out especially given the OP's own words
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| My school has been quite upstanding when it comes to transparency, the work environment, and adhering to the contract. I would be quite content finishing out my contract here (which ends in about 9 months |
What you are saying is 'no matter how good Koreans treat a westerner you just treat them badly.' That is just very bad advice.
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| In most cases in Korea, telling the whole truth doesn't pay. |
Never had a problem with telling Koreans the truth. |
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kinship
Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| What's dishonest? The law permits the employee to leave without notice. All the OP has to do is advise the employer he's leaving. The contracted benefits for not fulfilling the term (length) of the contract are forfeited of course. That's the legal protection for the employer. |
You actually need to ask that question? The school has been keeping up their part of the bargain and you want the OP to stiff them because the law says it is okay. That is bad and dishonest advice. |
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newb
Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Kinship, you haven't lived in this world long enough to understand "at-will" employment. I think you're too used to "slavery." |
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Allthechildrenareinsane
Joined: 23 Jun 2011
Location: Lost in a Roman wilderness of pain
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: tell the truth or lie about why i'm breaking my contract |
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CentralCali is correct that you have the right to leave w/out giving advance notice as stipulated in the contract. Nothing will happen to you legally if you do decide to break your contract w/out notice. I broke a contract about a year ago w/out giving notice b/c my employer wasn't paying me and returned to Korea this past June w/out any problems.
The question is, how much do you trust your current employer. Has your employer always paid on time? Do you trust them to pay you for all of the time you'll work between when you give notice and your last day on the job? Do you trust them not to fire you and refuse to pay any outstanding wages after you tell them you're leaving?
If the answer to any of those questions is "no," then I'd say don't give advance notice. Wait till after you've been paid for the month, pack your bags, book your flight, clean your apartment, move into a love motel temporarily, and then tell them your leaving. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| kinship wrote: |
| You actually need to ask that question? The school has been keeping up their part of the bargain and you want the OP to stiff them because the law says it is okay. That is bad and dishonest advice. |
Where did I say stiff the school, you liar? |
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Son Deureo!
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:54 am Post subject: |
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| wishfullthinkng wrote: |
| Son Deureo! wrote: |
| If you want to work for free for a month, give them notice. Otherwise, leave on payday and tell them whatever you like, after you've been paid. |
this is awful advice. you're an adult and you made a contractual decision to work at your current place of employment for a year. be honest and help them find a suitable replacement. even if you did work free for a month, you are the one who is breaking contract remember. plus you are going to be making far more money as you say in a better job so that probably shouldn't be too bad of a hit if it were to happen which i even doubt if you do the right thing. |
Labor law gives the OP the right to leave for any reason, or no reason, with notice, or without notice. He's not an indentured servant. Once he tells his employer he's going to leave, he's leaving himself vulnerable to non-payment. Once he leaves the country it will be virtually impossible to collect on any money he may be owed should his boss decide not to pay him for his last month of work.
There is very little upside for the OP to giving notice to the boss, aside from a clear conscience. That clear conscience would likely cost him most, if not all, of a month's wages. If the OP feels that being honest with his boss is that important to him, and if he can afford to take the hit, more power to him. But doing the right thing is unfortunately probably not actually in his best interests.
I stand by my advice, as unscrupulous as it may be, based on too much experience with the snakes in the hogwon industry.
| Quote: |
The question is, how much do you trust your current employer. Has your employer always paid on time? Do you trust them to pay you for all of the time you'll work between when you give notice and your last day on the job? Do you trust them not to fire you and refuse to pay any outstanding wages after you tell them you're leaving?
If the answer to any of those questions is "no," then I'd say don't give advance notice. Wait till after you've been paid for the month, pack your bags, book your flight, clean your apartment, move into a love motel temporarily, and then tell them your leaving. |
+1
I'd add to this that unless you know of people who have left your school early and gotten paid in full, that you have no way of knowing what your boss is capable of in that situation. A lot of people have gotten stiffed by hogwon owners when they left early. I wish it didn't have to be this way, but when in doubt, do unto hogwon owners before they can do unto you. |
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jargonscott
Joined: 11 Mar 2012
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
The OP is well before the six-month wicket when he will no longer be a probationary employee. If the school has people "on deck" to fill his position, he will be dismissed the instant he gives notice, IMHO. Note that I have not advised the OP to do anything illegal or immoral, but to act within the law and, if he does in fact have any actual monetary debt to the current employer, to repay that debt.
OP: I hope you have sufficient savings to make it to the new job and survive before that job's first payday. |
The people "on deck" are lined up to fill 2 other positions, since we have 2 teachers who are choosing not to renew their contracts at the end of this month. I've seen the lengthy process the school goes through to hire someone, so I doubt I will be immediately dismissed. Judging from the administrators interactions with current and former teachers, I wouldn't be surprised if they start with the default 60-day notice, but then allow me to leave sooner if they're able to arrange an earlier start date for my replacement.
And yes, I have sufficient savings. I've always enjoyed keeping my options open over the years. Maintaining a hefty savings account has always helped in that area. My new employer would be footing the bill for all settlement costs and I could live quite comfortably for a matter of months on my savings.
| Allthechildrenareinsane wrote: |
The question is, how much do you trust your current employer. Has your employer always paid on time? Do you trust them to pay you for all of the time you'll work between when you give notice and your last day on the job? Do you trust them not to fire you and refuse to pay any outstanding wages after you tell them you're leaving?
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Thankfully, I've been able to meet nearly every teacher that has worked for the school since its inception and everyone speaks of being treated fairly, even the ones that opted to get a different job. Trust is a strong word, especially considering I've only been here a few months, but they haven't given me any reasons not to. In fact, they've gone out of their way to help me with getting settled into life here. In all honesty, I see more drama/stress erupting if opted NOT to give proper notice.
As things continue to unfold with this next (potential) job, they might not need to rush me out there as quick as they originally thought. They said I'm their first choice, but it's a bit of a waiting game with administrators and the local government. Once all of the paperwork has been squared away and approved, we'll be able to focus on a departure date.
Thanks again for everyone's input. |
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I'm With You
Joined: 01 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| kinship wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| What's dishonest? The law permits the employee to leave without notice. All the OP has to do is advise the employer he's leaving. The contracted benefits for not fulfilling the term (length) of the contract are forfeited of course. That's the legal protection for the employer. |
You actually need to ask that question? The school has been keeping up their part of the bargain and you want the OP to stiff them because the law says it is okay. That is bad and dishonest advice. |
kinship,
There's nothing dishonest about it. But, I always give newbies in such situations the same advice: Look after yourself. No one else here will. And you can bet that that most Korean business owners will do the same.
I've known teachers who were fired in the 11th month at their hogwans. I've known people who get home and have had the locks changed on their apartment doors without any warning after giving their notice. I've known a teacher recently who gave notice and so the owner withheld the final salary for which she had to fight for and eventually received.
So, look after yourself first. No one else will. If that means collecting your final pay and then moving on, then do so.
Which brings me to my next point, and I've said this before here, no one is harder on foreign English teachers here than other foreign English teachers. It's disappointing to see.
Thankfully, though, we do have a few people here that do make sense and know the reality of the situations we often deal with working at Korean hogwans. |
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wonkavite62
Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Location: Jeollanamdo, South Korea.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:57 am Post subject: Some Thoughts About The Job |
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I personally would have some moral dilemmas about breaking a contract so early in the day, especially if the hagwon is, as you say, a decent and honest one. So, I would want to give them a sixty day notice if possible. Check with the dream job if they have any flexibility as to when you can join them. If not, then give your current school some notice at least, offer to repay your flight to Korea, and help to find a replacement.
But the other job? Is it also with an honest broker? If it's another teaching job, say in the middle east, particularly in Saudi Arabia please be aware that there can be problems and delays in payment of salary.
If it's a well-paying job at home, and in a sector you've dreamed of working in, then well done, if you actually have a job offer. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| zpeanut wrote: |
| kinship wrote: |
You give your notice and be honest. If you are before the 6 month mark you repay all monies due as per contract. Wishfulthinking has given you good advice and you should follow that.
Ignore all those who want you to be dishonest or violate your contract terms. They are not going to be the ones with the blackmark or get into trouble so they do not care what they say to you.
They are also the ones who make things worse for westerners in this country |
ditto. especially the last point.
It sounds like your employer has been honest with you, so you should do the same. I know horror stories can send your mind spinning a bit but really, at the end of the day people are quite the same.
No one likes being treated without respect after they've made an effort to treat you well. Theres no point spinning a half-lie, just a simple ' i was offered a better opportunity' would suffice. |
+1 |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| zpeanut wrote: |
| kinship wrote: |
You give your notice and be honest. If you are before the 6 month mark you repay all monies due as per contract. Wishfulthinking has given you good advice and you should follow that.
Ignore all those who want you to be dishonest or violate your contract terms. They are not going to be the ones with the blackmark or get into trouble so they do not care what they say to you.
They are also the ones who make things worse for westerners in this country |
ditto. especially the last point.
It sounds like your employer has been honest with you, so you should do the same. I know horror stories can send your mind spinning a bit but really, at the end of the day people are quite the same.
No one likes being treated without respect after they've made an effort to treat you well. Theres no point spinning a half-lie, just a simple ' i was offered a better opportunity' would suffice. |
+1 |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| You should do whatever is necessary to secure that dream job. But morally you need to be honest with your employer. They're probably working their asses off trying to run a business and keep the family afloat. If you can stay for the full 60 days, great. If not, the employer will still be getting about a month's pay out of you for the flight, recruiter cost (?) and anything else in the contract. |
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Skippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Daejeon
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:06 am Post subject: |
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Peter'rs Laws - The Creed of the Psychopathic Obsessive Compulsive
Law #2 - When given a choice -- Take Both |
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Really why do one or the other. Why not do both. Or all moves possible. Leave and quitting a school is rarely a simple process. If you are lucky it wil be A,B,C. More often then not it, can twist and turn and change day to day.
As people said, the person you need to look of for is yourself. What do you want exactly? How do you want it to end?
I have seen respect and honor go out the door over imagined slights. You think being honest and giving notice may be seen as that. No, to some boss your quitting will be seen as you hate them and are abandoning them. Why should they be nice? From friend to enemy in a conversation.
Understanding? Ok you lie that mom is sick and they believe it. Guess what, many of them will not care or ask why do you need to go. Ask the other people, how schools treated them when their brother's wedding came up or close aunt died. Sorry no time off for you! Ahh, so sad, back to class.
My recommendation is do both quit nicely, but prepare for a midnight run if the school gets squirrelly.
Now start planning for contingencies and different options.. You quit, things go smoothly and you leave 60 days later. BUT... what if the owner turns around and fires you that day and you have to be out of the apartment tomorrow. Are you ready?
So you plan and try to counter any future moves. I can move out in a day and sleep on my friends couch. I have money for my ow ticket if needed. What if they they call and lie to immigration? How will I deal with delays of payment?
Good Luck.
PS. One side question is the dream job, that scam of teaching some Russian business mans children in London? |
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