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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Lesson in this? Just take out as much credit as you can and hope that some politician panders to you and forgives your debt. In the meantime, live large. People who responsibly pay their bills on time are saps. |
I do not think that is the lesson here. The lesson is that interest-bearing loans -- loans which, in principle, can require infinity repayment of a finite borrowed sum -- are socially destructive absent an effective forgiveness system (and probably even present one, but that is a broader topic). The consequence for hastily taking out a student loan at age 18 (after the economic system has been rigged to push you into doing it, no less) and then failing to get a decent job after graduation cannot be life-long debt slavery. We are not talking about guys graduating, walking into 100 grand a year jobs, and then giving society the finger here. |
True, but in some cases we are people who are kicking the can down the road. Just like the big boys take the bailout money and then continue doing the same shenanigans, I think some people would do the same thing with a penalty-free debt forgiveness issued by the government.
The problem is that we have the higher education model for workplace skills, which is in my opinion impractical and inefficient in many cases. We need a return to apprenticeship mixed with education. Combine that with the significant number of people who attain college degrees yet completely lack the proper mindset for academia, the dilution of standards, and the catastrophic rise in tuition and books, and you have a recipe for looming disaster.
I'd be in favor of some sort of debt relief if someone could demonstrate that they have had 10+ years of continuous full-time employment (or mitigating factors like significant community service, disability, etc.) but just waving the wand and making it go away for someone who bounces around from odd-job to odd-job, continues to party, and focuses more on "finding themself" should be made to pony up. Maybe draft them into community service for 12 hours a week or something akin to the CCC or paving highways. I wouldn't say military conscription except perhaps as a last resort- maybe those who freeload on the government dole (reasonable exceptions of course for disabled, areas with sky-high unemployment rates, etc.) |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I'd be in favor of some sort of debt relief if someone could demonstrate that they have had 10+ years of continuous full-time employment ... |
But it's the people who struggle to get sufficient full-time employment that most need the debt relief.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Maybe draft them into community service for 12 hours a week or something akin to the CCC or paving highways. I wouldn't say military conscription except perhaps as a last resort- maybe those who freeload on the government dole (reasonable exceptions of course for disabled, areas with sky-high unemployment rates, etc.) |
How about instead of the whole, "Turn debtors into public slaves," thing, we just reform western higher education? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| But it's the people who struggle to get sufficient full-time employment that most need the debt relief. |
True, and there are many cases where people face struggles. But let's be real, there are many people who are simply lazy slackers or are constitutionally incapable of exerting discipline into their own lives and could benefit from a moderately punitive approach.
| Quote: |
| How about instead of the whole, "Turn debtors into public slaves," thing, we just reform western higher education? |
I'm up for both. The structural economics, heck structure in general, of Western Higher Ed needs a substantial overhaul. As I mentioned, apprenticeship and practical education should be much more common, as should financial education.
As I've said, college should really be only for about 10-20% of people out there, the rest simply lack the mindset. Another 10-20% have a mindset for specific secondary education. About 10-20% of the population is just unfit for non-practical schooling beyond the 8th grade and should be pushed into practical trades where they have a better chance at carving out a good future. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| But let's be real, there are many people who are simply lazy slackers or are constitutionally incapable of exerting discipline into their own lives and could benefit from a moderately punitive approach. |
Offer most college graduates a decently-paying full time job which will empower them to repay the loans, and they'll take it and repay the loans. Talking about laziness when real unemployment (not the PR figure) is over 14% (to say nothing of underemployment) is just not fair Steelrails. These people took out loans and went to college precisely because they thought it would ensure them the kind of job that would allow them to repay it. You want to punish people for losing at a competition where, from a systematic perspective, many people must lose.
| Steelrails wrote: |
The structural economics, heck structure in general, of Western Higher Ed needs a substantial overhaul. As I mentioned, apprenticeship and practical education should be much more common, as should financial education.
As I've said, college should really be only for about 10-20% of people out there, the rest simply lack the mindset. Another 10-20% have a mindset for specific secondary education. About 10-20% of the population is just unfit for non-practical schooling beyond the 8th grade and should be pushed into practical trades where they have a better chance at carving out a good future. |
I'm inclined to agree, so why punish people because their 18 year old selves were pushed into going to college by a society that totally disregarded this? Kids are generally made to feel it's student loans or poverty. 18 year old kids, with no worldly experience (again, because of society's structure) told to take a loan or be poor forever. Go to college, or you're a loser. Go to college, or you're stupid. That's the message the kid who would probably be happier as a plumber's apprentice hears. Making people work as slave labor for the state because, "Hey, you fell for our propaganda," is unacceptable.
Broader society in general made a mistake here, and broader society in general needs to rectify it. |
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