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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| GF wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| That's simply irreconcilable with western culture at this point; they just don't understand that their moral position -- even if it were to be right! -- has no bearing on what the rights of citizens under secular law should be. |
If the teachings are true, then they are absolute, and the civil law must do its utmost to uphold them. |
Agreed, but that's a non-trivial qualifier you hooked onto the beginning of that sentence. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
I have to agree with Fox. The new boss is same as the old boss.
He is supposedly concerned about the poor, but let's see the RCC doing something to actually help the poor and not just asking their congregations for donations. Let's see them sell off some of their real estate holdings. Let's see priests living in conditions more closely resembling those of their parishioners. |
He took public transport and lived in a crappy apartment instead of the usual housing an archbishop is provided.
But his beliefs mirror the previous one. He might be more similar to John Paul II than benedict (conservative but also a leader). I guess time will tell.. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
I have to agree with Fox. The new boss is same as the old boss.
He is supposedly concerned about the poor, but let's see the RCC doing something to actually help the poor and not just asking their congregations for donations. Let's see them sell off some of their real estate holdings. Let's see priests living in conditions more closely resembling those of their parishioners. |
He took public transport and lived in a crappy apartment instead of the usual housing an archbishop is provided.
But his beliefs mirror the previous one. He might be more similar to John Paul II than benedict (conservative but also a leader). I guess time will tell.. |
I noted his interest in the poor, which includes his modest living arrangements.
Neither of the prior two popes did much to move the church forward. Francis probably won't either, but you're right--time will tell. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
Neither of the prior two popes did much to move the church forward. |
Where is forward? Be specific. This isn't the Huffington Post. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Neither of the prior two popes did much to move the church forward. |
Where is forward? Be specific. This isn't the Huffington Post. |
A church that represents the people it supposedly serves. A church that serves its parishioners instead of itself. Towards honesty. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| The Catholic hospital system took care of the poor before obamacare, and it educated the children of the poor for decades. For all its scandals, it surely has served the poor better then the state has. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
| The Catholic hospital system took care of the poor before obamacare, and it educated the children of the poor for decades. For all its scandals, it surely has served the poor better then the state has. |
Why bring the state into it? Can't the church stand on its own record?
Personally, I don't think I'd bring up the education of children. Unless you're into physical and sexual abuse. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| Heh, I make a point and you make a nasty insinuation. Yes, the catholic church had a serious problem with child abuse. The church has also tried to give the poor of nyc a decent education. Now the state also has problems with abuse, and it has failed miserably in its mission. I take Fox's point that religious organizations are held to a higher standard, and I agree with that. Nevertheless, the church has done good things for the poor of NYC. |
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GF
Joined: 26 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| GF wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| That's simply irreconcilable with western culture at this point; they just don't understand that their moral position -- even if it were to be right! -- has no bearing on what the rights of citizens under secular law should be. |
If the teachings are true, then they are absolute, and the civil law must do its utmost to uphold them. |
Agreed, but that's a non-trivial qualifier you hooked onto the beginning of that sentence. |
You seemed to be saying that even if the teachings on sexual morality were true, there would be no reason for the civil law to uphold them. Did I misunderstand you? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:34 am Post subject: |
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The financial crisis is to Wall Street as the sex abuse scandal is to the Catholic Church.
Handling the sex abuse scandal should mean extensive investigations, prosecutions and criminal charges under Vatican law, the Vatican is a state, after all. Its unfair to demand consistent moral conduct from an organization made of humans, but we may demand ultimate accountability and justice.
I will not hold my breath, as Francis is a Jesuit. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
| The Catholic hospital system took care of the poor before obamacare, and it educated the children of the poor for decades. For all its scandals, it surely has served the poor better then the state has. |
I'd say "the state" has done more for the poor in some parts of the world than the church has. If you are just referring to the USA, then I still would find that debatable.
Its role in educating children unfortunately is bound to decrease in New York.
That being said, while this article is a bit of a downer, it has many positive things to say about the role of the Catholic church in NYC education over the years.
Important note in the latter article:
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| In 1961, the archdiocese had 212,781 students in 414 elementary and high schools. This year, including the schools that are closing, there were 79,782 children at 274 schools. |
Why the huge decrease? I'd say higher costs, better public schools, and a worse reputation for the church. I'm just purely speculating though, basing that on no facts whatsoever. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:32 am Post subject: |
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Heya BB, I tend to disagree. I think the schools in public schools in '61 were quite good. I think Stephen J Gould went to one. I think since the mid seventies on is when the rot set in. Now its not really a school system at all, in that from what I heard (my roommate was a teacher) the students were so far behind it was absurd. I think most of the testing done has similar problems to Atlanta. Its just fake numbers put out by soviet apparatchiks for the latest 5 year plan.
True though, the catholic system is also dying, albeit i would still much rather my kid went there then a public school. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
Heya BB, I tend to disagree. I think the schools in public schools in '61 were quite good. I think Stephen J Gould went to one. I think since the mid seventies on is when the rot set in. Now its not really a school system at all, in that from what I heard (my roommate was a teacher) the students were so far behind it was absurd. I think most of the testing done has similar problems to Atlanta. Its just fake numbers put out by soviet apparatchiks for the latest 5 year plan.
True though, the catholic system is also dying, albeit i would still much rather my kid went there then a public school. |
Sorry, I didn't mean that entire period of time; I meant schools are better now than the 80s and 90s. Then again, maybe not. There is definitely more attention given to education now than in those decades and more options. As the article also notes, charter schools have been a contributing factor to the decrease of students at Catholic schools. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| GF wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| GF wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| That's simply irreconcilable with western culture at this point; they just don't understand that their moral position -- even if it were to be right! -- has no bearing on what the rights of citizens under secular law should be. |
If the teachings are true, then they are absolute, and the civil law must do its utmost to uphold them. |
Agreed, but that's a non-trivial qualifier you hooked onto the beginning of that sentence. |
You seemed to be saying that even if the teachings on sexual morality were true, there would be no reason for the civil law to uphold them. Did I misunderstand you? |
You did misunderstand me. My argument is fundamentally skeptic in character; is is not founded upon rebellion, but ignorance (and I am not ashamed to phrase it that way). If the omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent creator of the universe mandates something, of course it is to be followed. The importance of secular law lies in the fact that no clear thinking, unbiased individual has any coherent reason to believe such an entity exists (yes, I know you object to that, but it's true). The point of secular law is to provide a floor: an effective moral minimum, based on the observable universal truths of human nature, and worked towards through purely pragmatic means (which is why, for instance, reducing abortion through poverty reduction is a secular strategy). Beyond that, it is up to any given religion or philosophy to convince society of its justice. As a person already convinced you may not like that sentiment, but as a person as-of-yet-unconvinced, I cannot help but express it.
I am not heckling you, and I am not heckling your Church. If you have something which might demonstrate the truth of your belief to me, then say it. Absent such a thing, the most I will do -- and the most you can expect broader society to do, the most you can expect of secular law -- is to agree with the subsectors of your belief which are demonstrably accurate. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 9:33 am Post subject: |
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Pope Francis Insists Church Must Help Poor, Urges Governments to Pursue Financial Reform
| Pope Francis wrote: |
If we step outside of ourselves, we will find poverty.
Today, and it breaks my heart to say it, finding a homeless person who has died of cold, is not news. Today, the news is scandals, that is news, but the many children who don't have food - that's not news. This is grave. We can't rest easy while things are this way.
This is happening today. If investments in banks fall, it is a tragedy and people say 'what are we going to do?' but if people die of hunger, have nothing to eat or suffer from poor health, that's nothing. This is our crisis today. A Church that is poor and for the poor has to fight this mentality. |
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