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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| jcm87 wrote: |
| And I did not get any compensation for airfare on the second year of the contract (nor do teachers at my school get a pension, bonus, health insurance, or anything like that) so it's not like he made an investment on me. |
Not paying a pension or health insurance is illegal if you are an employee under Korean labor law.
I'd tell him he can give me a LOR or he can be reported to the pension office and labor board.
Of course he'll probably start yelling in which case I'd just say "Okay so you WANT to be reported." And then walk out and file a report at the pension office and then go to the labor board and try to get released from the contract on the grounds that he is violating labor law.
You don't need a LOR if the labor board agrees with you and gives you a release.
Of course it's still a coin flip but you do have some leverage here in this situation if you choose to use it. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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Immigration still has to follow the law, friend. And the basic law is the constitution.
I think you're missing the point on what a punitive reduction in wages is. The way I understand it is that a boss cannot take money from you that you have already earned, he cannot fine you. What he can do, of course, is reduce your future wages for your continued employment. And that bit about keeping the OP's entire pay for three months? Absolutely insane.
As for EPIK, well, yeah; any company can decide that they will not rehire someone who used to work for them. They don't even have to gen up a reason. But that company cannot decided that nobody else will hire that person. Hey, if you're lucky, your boss will idiotically do what my last dishonest hagweon boss did: actually admit in writing to someone not involved in the case, to the people involved in the case, and to the various government offices the boss's specific violations of law. That was classic. And it made us all immune from Korea's inane libel/slander law in that case.
Of course I wouldn't want to be involved with a lying scum dishonest hagweon boss in a suit claiming I somehow caused some nebulous harm to his business. That's what makes the rest of the stuff, usually, just academic. Korea's courts have been known to specifically state that one party did, in fact, do something illegal but, what the hey, they're really at heart good and decent people (actual evidence to the contrary notwithstanding), so the court's going to declare said good and decent people to be completely innocent and to heck with the consequences to the victimized person(s) (read: those who don't have a deep pocket).
Regarding the reporting to pension/labor/etc.; even after you get the LOR and once you get yourself working at the next outfit, go ahead and follow through on the report. |
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jcm87
Joined: 19 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
Let's see:
- Hourly pay, not a montly salary.
- You have no control over your hours.
- Punitive monetary measures
You wouldn't be adverse to naming the "chain" that your current hagweon is affiliated with, would you? I mean, a fair number of us can probably guess what it is, but not everyone could.
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Actually I think all of the test-prep hagwons offer the same contracts more or less. You get a very high hourly wage and if you work a lot of hours you can make an absolute killing. Because the contract deems you as an 'independent contractor' though or something like that, you don't get a pension, bonus, or health insurance. I don't mind this at all because you don't have to do deskwarming and the pay can be really, really good.
My hagwon is a major test-prep hagwon in Seoul but my boss reads eslcafe.com and I don't want to create any more trouble, so I won't name it. All I want to do is get that LoR, work for my new job, and put the past behind me. If he doesn't like any of the replacements I have lined up for the job (who are more than qualified) than people will definitely know what my hagwon is called and how I was treated. I understand that I inconvenienced my school and maybe most readers would side with them but I think they've put me through enough already. I don't think the punishment (getting kicked out of Korea) fits the crime (changing schools without enough notice). Like I said, I'm fine with them withholding all money owed to me until my replacement finishes a few months of their contract. But I think as long as I am genuinely doing my best to find a replacement (and I am; aside from the one I recommended I have three more who are very qualified) I think I should be entitled to a release letter. Of course it doesn't matter what I think I'm entitled to; I'm just praying that he likes the replacements I've picked out. If not, it looks like I'm headed to Hong Kong or Taipei.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| jcm87 wrote: |
| And I did not get any compensation for airfare on the second year of the contract (nor do teachers at my school get a pension, bonus, health insurance, or anything like that) so it's not like he made an investment on me. |
Not paying a pension or health insurance is illegal if you are an employee under Korean labor law.
I'd tell him he can give me a LOR or he can be reported to the pension office and labor board.
Of course he'll probably start yelling in which case I'd just say "Okay so you WANT to be reported." And then walk out and file a report at the pension office and then go to the labor board and try to get released from the contract on the grounds that he is violating labor law.
You don't need a LOR if the labor board agrees with you and gives you a release.
Of course it's still a coin flip but you do have some leverage here in this situation if you choose to use it. |
Like I said above I don't think they have to pay for any of that stuff because we're 'independent contractors.' As far as I know, all of the test-prep hagwons offer basically the same kind of contract and have been doing so for years so I doubt it's illegal or else they would have lost some lawsuits and changed the contracts. But maybe it's an absolute last resort I could try if he refuses to give me the LoR. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| So you're an independent contractor but you need a letter of release. Come one, come all, apologists! Explain how that works. You're not a contractor, you're not independent, he's not your client, and you're getting screwed. Freaking dishonest bosses. |
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jcm87
Joined: 19 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| So you're an independent contractor but you need a letter of release. Come one, come all, apologists! Explain how that works. You're not a contractor, you're not independent, he's not your client, and you're getting screwed. Freaking dishonest bosses. |
Agreed, the nature of the test prep industry is that there is a very high turnover of teachers (the work is seasonal, among many other things). That's why we don't get benefits like health insurance and the pension. They say this is because we're "independent contractors" and that they don't need to give us the privileges of the English teachers. So why then do we need this release letter? Unfortunately I don't think the law is on my side. I just have to hope that my boss gives me the LoR. |
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jcm87
Joined: 19 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:52 am Post subject: |
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| So now there's a dispute over the apartment. In the contract I signed with the new school I get housing and they told me I could stay in my current apartment. My old school wants to get rid of the apartment for whatever reason (since the time I moved in they've found cheaper housing) and my new school doesn't want it because of the lease. My contract with them is only for three months and the landlord wants a six month lease at least. Earlier I had made the mistake of giving my new school's number to the old school for the apartment stuff and somewhere along the way they told the new school they haven't given me the release letter. My guess is that they just don't want to deal with any of this because they called me in to talk about me not having the release letter rather than the apartment. If the new school tries to break contract with me am I entitled to anything at all? Maybe a little compensation? |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:01 am Post subject: |
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Nope... since you don't have a release they can't legally hire you.
They would be entitled to compensation for YOUR not being able to fulfill the contract.
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| jcm87 wrote: |
| Agreed, the nature of the test prep industry is that there is a very high turnover of teachers (the work is seasonal, among many other things). That's why we don't get benefits like health insurance and the pension. |
That's not why you don't get those bennies. The reason you dont' get those bennies is because the boss is a lying piece of dung.
| Quote: |
| They say this is because we're "independent contractors" and that they don't need to give us the privileges of the English teachers. So why then do we need this release letter? Unfortunately I don't think the law is on my side. I just have to hope that my boss gives me the LoR. |
Immigration doesn't care what your boss tells the tax authority about you. They only care about what your boss tells Immigration about you. And, no doubt you saw this one coming, of course the boss told Immigration that you're working for the boss, that the boss is your employer. That's why Immigration forked over an E-2 visa. (My usual comment is here: wait for the usual apologists to come in and start blathering about the tax laws.) |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| jcm87 wrote: |
| So now there's a dispute over the apartment. In the contract I signed with the new school I get housing and they told me I could stay in my current apartment. |
This I don't grok. Did you sign a rental contract with the apartment owner? If not, the old school did and it's their apartment--you're just living there. The new school will either provide you an actual apartment or an allownce in lieu thereof (if such is specified in the contract). They certainly don't have any say on you staying in an apartment someone else has rented.
| Quote: |
| My old school wants to get rid of the apartment for whatever reason (since the time I moved in they've found cheaper housing) and my new school doesn't want it because of the lease. |
Well, yeah. I'd be looking to unload the place too if the person I'd rented it for was no longer in my employ. Why should your old boss continue to pay rent on an empty apartment?
| Quote: |
| My contract with them is only for three months and the landlord wants a six month lease at least. Earlier I had made the mistake of giving my new school's number to the old school for the apartment stuff and somewhere along the way they told the new school they haven't given me the release letter. My guess is that they just don't want to deal with any of this because they called me in to talk about me not having the release letter rather than the apartment. If the new school tries to break contract with me am I entitled to anything at all? Maybe a little compensation? |
I'm with ttom on this. I think you jumped the gun and you just might be liable for more than you think right now.
Dang. I can't believe I'm actually defending scum who run the IC scam. |
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jcm87
Joined: 19 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| jcm87 wrote: |
| So now there's a dispute over the apartment. In the contract I signed with the new school I get housing and they told me I could stay in my current apartment. |
This I don't grok. Did you sign a rental contract with the apartment owner? If not, the old school did and it's their apartment--you're just living there. The new school will either provide you an actual apartment or an allownce in lieu thereof (if such is specified in the contract). They certainly don't have any say on you staying in an apartment someone else has rented.
| Quote: |
| My old school wants to get rid of the apartment for whatever reason (since the time I moved in they've found cheaper housing) and my new school doesn't want it because of the lease. |
Well, yeah. I'd be looking to unload the place too if the person I'd rented it for was no longer in my employ. Why should your old boss continue to pay rent on an empty apartment?
| Quote: |
| My contract with them is only for three months and the landlord wants a six month lease at least. Earlier I had made the mistake of giving my new school's number to the old school for the apartment stuff and somewhere along the way they told the new school they haven't given me the release letter. My guess is that they just don't want to deal with any of this because they called me in to talk about me not having the release letter rather than the apartment. If the new school tries to break contract with me am I entitled to anything at all? Maybe a little compensation? |
I'm with ttom on this. I think you jumped the gun and you just might be liable for more than you think right now.
Dang. I can't believe I'm actually defending scum who run the IC scam. |
My old school has a lot of teachers coming in...I didn't understand why they wouldn't give the apartment to one of them. They told me that it was because they had found cheaper apartments since then. They wanted their deposit back but my new school wasn't going to lay down a massive deposit on an apartment that I'd only be renting for 3 months (which I don't get either, wouldn't they have to do this anyway? Don't you always have to lay down a deposit on an apartment?). And of course my old school said they wouldn't give me the LoR until they got their deposit back, which I guess they weren't going to get from the landlord even if I moved out because it was before the lease was up. So what was going to have to happen was I needed to raise 5 million won by tomorrow to pay the deposit so that way I could get the LoR from my school. I don't have that much money right now and borrowing it was going to be very tricky since it had to be done before tomorrow afternoon. (The worst part about this was that I would have had more than enough money but last week I lent my brother a ton of money that I wouldn't be able to get back). I told my school that I could do it though and hoped for the best. Luckily, not long afterwards, my new school called me and said they felt so bad for me that they would take care of the deposit for the time being.
It's still an ongoing saga though because I have to hope my boss likes my recommendation that is interviewing tomorrow...if I don't get the release letter by Friday than I won't be able to work for my new school and I'll be absolutely $#%@ed.
I guess the lesson to learn from this is be VERY careful about switching jobs. Your school doesn't need to give you the LoR if they don't want to and if they decide to fire you in the meantime (like my school did) than you could be stuck without a job and without an LoR, meaning you have to leave the country. My advice to anyone is to not ever switch jobs mid contract. This isn't like working in any other country. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| Friend, if I were you, I'd simply take the next available flight out of Korea. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| Friend, if I were you, I'd simply take the next available flight out of Korea. |
+1 |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Yep. You're not getting another worker to replace you. You're definitely not getting a place to live without a Korean to help you. You certainly can count on both the old boss and the prospective boss to flat out refuse to help you on that. There are apartments--few and far between--in Korea that don't require a massive deposit, but generally those require at least a solid one year contract. The old boss very well may have found cheaper places. And I guess I can understand them not wanting to start a rental which just might end up unoccupied for a while.
And this, my friends, is why you don't sign crappy contracts and, yes, IC is a crappy contract.
By the way, OP; have you considere working in China? I happen to know of a position opening up in Maoming, Guangdong. |
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jcm87
Joined: 19 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
Yep. You're not getting another worker to replace you. You're definitely not getting a place to live without a Korean to help you. You certainly can count on both the old boss and the prospective boss to flat out refuse to help you on that. There are apartments--few and far between--in Korea that don't require a massive deposit, but generally those require at least a solid one year contract. The old boss very well may have found cheaper places. And I guess I can understand them not wanting to start a rental which just might end up unoccupied for a while.
And this, my friends, is why you don't sign crappy contracts and, yes, IC is a crappy contract.
By the way, OP; have you considere working in China? I happen to know of a position opening up in Maoming, Guangdong. |
Luckily my new school has been very nice about everything...they're willing to lend me 5 million won for the deposit even though I will only work for them for 3 months. The job will be extremely lucrative and I would WAY rather work here for the summer and make a lot of money than go to China.
Also, my boss told me over the phone that the email that I wrote him would be signed as an agreement. In this email I said that if I found a replacement I would get my release letter. My replacement is interviewing today and I am guessing he will get the job (he is very competent and they desperately need a replacement for me, according to my boss; and even if my boss doesn't like him I have an even better one lined up). Since I have held up my end of the deal, can't I expect him to hold up his end of the deal? |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| jcm87 wrote: |
| Since I have held up my end of the deal, can't I expect him to hold up his end of the deal? |
In short, no. But I'm only basing that on my opinion of someone who will illegally withhold an employee's entire salary for three months or more after the end of employment and my (fact-based) opinion of an employer who runs the IC scam.
By the way, what's your plan at the end of three months? You're going to owe your new boss five thousand dollars and I have serious doubts you'll be getting that deposit back after three months from the landlord. Heck, if you do luck out and actually get that letter of release, you'd be better off staying at a haksujip (sp?) or goshiweon for the duration.
Oh, I forgot to mention something. "Over the phone" is absolutely meaningless. If it's not written, signed, and tojanged, it's nothing. There are no verbal contracts, no verbal agreements. The only thing that matters is what's written, signed, and tojanged. |
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