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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:52 pm Post subject: Re: What happened to Korea??? |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Canadian1987 wrote: |
I felt like Korea would be a good fit for me...I was dead wrong.
When I arrived in Daegu to work for a terrible school called Poly, the school made several revisions to my contract, which included more hours, reduced pay, and a messed up severance.
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Well Korea does not equal one (or two schools). 
Your experience is mostly different because you were unlucky enough to land jobs at two bad schools. Your friends were either (a) luckier or (b) embellishing their experiences somewhat.
That said yes things have gotten tougher over here. More and more people are coming over to teach and many private schools are upping the requirements (both in terms of paperwork and performance) while public schools seem to be upping the ante (in terms of paperwork at least) even more every year.
As for the criticism directed at the FTs at your school...I wouldn't take much notice of it. Standard hakwon management procedures. Just do the best you can. As for the rest...SNIP and go about your day. |
What kinds of things are being increased in public school? |
Paperwork mostly. Doubled up documentation. |
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ATM SPIDERTAO
Joined: 05 Jul 2009
Location: seoul, south korea
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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dude
public schools are basically non-profit government buildings
hagwons are made by business owners.
and the average korean person works 50-60 hours a week.
how about the average English teacher?
I had the same sentiment when i worked at my school. I only taught from 9-2, why couldn't i just go home? Those are the kinds of attitudes that make koreans think foreigners are lazy.
Not that we're necessarily lazy, but getting paid salary and not hourly made no sense to us. We were just paid to sit there on the computer and do absolutely nothing. why couldn't we do nothing from home?
If a person from country A is used to working 12 hours a day and complains for working 13 hours is compared to a person from country B who is used to working 8 hours a day and complains about working 9 hours, who do YOU think will be called "lazy"?
you're already at what's considered the easiest job in Korea (teaching)
also, Korea is a country with a high power index. older korean men treat you like people lower than them because there's no concept of equality here. human rights yes, but you're a lesser being because you're younger. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: What happened to Korea??? |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Canadian1987 wrote: |
I felt like Korea would be a good fit for me...I was dead wrong.
When I arrived in Daegu to work for a terrible school called Poly, the school made several revisions to my contract, which included more hours, reduced pay, and a messed up severance.
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Well Korea does not equal one (or two schools).
Your experience is mostly different because you were unlucky enough to land jobs at two bad schools. Your friends were either (a) luckier or (b) embellishing their experiences somewhat.
That said yes things have gotten tougher over here. More and more people are coming over to teach and many private schools are upping the requirements (both in terms of paperwork and performance) while public schools seem to be upping the ante (in terms of paperwork at least) even more every year.
As for the criticism directed at the FTs at your school...I wouldn't take much notice of it. Standard hakwon management procedures. Just do the best you can. As for the rest...SNIP and go about your day. |
What kinds of things are being increased in public school? |
Paperwork mostly. Doubled up documentation. |
They make you do paperwork now? Isn't it all in Korean? I'm public out in the provinces, so maybe those changes haven't affected me yet. I only make material for my classes. I have no paperwork burden, but I teach more classes than my Korean co teachers. I'm 22 versus their 18 to 20 range.
But, because I've been here for a few years, I've saved most PPT's and other exercises on an external hard drive. So, usually, when teachers come at me at the last minute, I just pull out a file and go teach it. (Like an extra camp or something.)
I will say the past couple of years I might be asked to correct some students writing on occasion as I never did that before. One of my schools this year will make me supervise a couple of classes on exam days instead of sitting at my desk. Kind of a minor pain in the butt, but bearable, I guess. Maybe, it's starting here too. Lol. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ATM SPIDERTAO wrote: |
dude
public schools are basically non-profit government buildings
hagwons are made by business owners.
and the average korean person works 50-60 hours a week.
how about the average English teacher?
I had the same sentiment when i worked at my school. I only taught from 9-2, why couldn't i just go home? Those are the kinds of attitudes that make koreans think foreigners are lazy.
Not that we're necessarily lazy, but getting paid salary and not hourly made no sense to us. We were just paid to sit there on the computer and do absolutely nothing. why couldn't we do nothing from home?
If a person from country A is used to working 12 hours a day and complains for working 13 hours is compared to a person from country B who is used to working 8 hours a day and complains about working 9 hours, who do YOU think will be called "lazy"?
you're already at what's considered the easiest job in Korea (teaching)
also, Korea is a country with a high power index. older korean men treat you like people lower than them because there's no concept of equality here. human rights yes, but you're a lesser being because you're younger. |
Out in the country you can go home early. But you usually have to be in really really small towns. Maybe 30,000 or less. But, even then no gaurantees. But would you rather live there or in a big city? That's the trade off. Most teachers I think want to live in a big city. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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As someone who use to work for an hourly wage in order to make rent and whose hours were dependent on business flow and "finding something to do" because management was always looking to cut labor costs, the people who whine and moan about deskwarming absolutely baffle me.
I just don't get how anyone can complain about having to sit around and do nothing at their job. Their sole duty in order to receive their wage is to sit at a desk and remain conscious. 90% of the world would kill to have a job that paid as well as ours and had such work.
Not to sound like "character building dad", but anyone who whines about deskwarming should be handed a shovel and told to dig ditches for 12 hours straight in the heat. One day of that, and they would beg for deskwarming.
If an employee, and as a former manager, if someone ever came up to me and complained about idle time where they had nothing to do, I'd promptly find some sort of menial duty for them to fulfill.
Someone who complains about deskwarming just comes off as the most spoiled, entitled, laziest piece of crap in the world. Can you imagine people with that kind of work ethic if they were responsibly for their own food and shelter in the state of nature? |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
As someone who use to work for an hourly wage in order to make rent and whose hours were dependent on business flow and "finding something to do" because management was always looking to cut labor costs, the people who whine and moan about deskwarming absolutely baffle me.
I just don't get how anyone can complain about having to sit around and do nothing at their job. Their sole duty in order to receive their wage is to sit at a desk and remain conscious. 90% of the world would kill to have a job that paid as well as ours and had such work.
Not to sound like "character building dad", but anyone who whines about deskwarming should be handed a shovel and told to dig ditches for 12 hours straight in the heat. One day of that, and they would beg for deskwarming.
If an employee, and as a former manager, if someone ever came up to me and complained about idle time where they had nothing to do, I'd promptly find some sort of menial duty for them to fulfill.
Someone who complains about deskwarming just comes off as the most spoiled, entitled, laziest piece of crap in the world. Can you imagine people with that kind of work ethic if they were responsibly for their own food and shelter in the state of nature? |
I personally agree with all that!
I didn't mind deskwarming as long as I was being left alone.
I liked teaching and didn't mind deskwarming. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| ATM SPIDERTAO wrote: |
dude
public schools are basically non-profit government buildings
hagwons are made by business owners.
and the average korean person works 50-60 hours a week.
how about the average English teacher?
I had the same sentiment when i worked at my school. I only taught from 9-2, why couldn't i just go home? Those are the kinds of attitudes that make koreans think foreigners are lazy.
Not that we're necessarily lazy, but getting paid salary and not hourly made no sense to us. We were just paid to sit there on the computer and do absolutely nothing. why couldn't we do nothing from home?
If a person from country A is used to working 12 hours a day and complains for working 13 hours is compared to a person from country B who is used to working 8 hours a day and complains about working 9 hours, who do YOU think will be called "lazy"?
you're already at what's considered the easiest job in Korea (teaching)
also, Korea is a country with a high power index. older korean men treat you like people lower than them because there's no concept of equality here. human rights yes, but you're a lesser being because you're younger. |
See, this is the common misconception about Korea. Koreans' work life is the same as ours, we just have different concepts of it.
You say a foreigner doesn't understand why they can't leave when they're done their work. Well, a Korean does understand. That is the only difference, really. Koreans don't 'work' longer hours, they're 'at work' longer hours. The Western (or, more specifically Anglo/American) concept of work is actually doing something. Thus, when we finish a task we consider 'work' to be finished and get frustrated by having to sit around just for show. To a Korean, 'work' is being somewhere. It makes absolutely no difference if anything gets done. Thus, a Korean can sit at their place of employment for 10, 12, 15 hours a day and feel as though they are working hard without finishing anything whereas a foreigner can complete a task in a couple of hours and have that same sense of accomplishment.
If you doubt what I say, please google the time spent at work vs efficiency stats that are regularly posted here to disprove such things as you wrote. Many foreigners, coming from our background of thinking that you must be doing something productive if you're at work (and you only complain if it's really bad) hear and see their co-workers and make assumptions based on these biases. I don't know how long you've been here, but once you see co-worker after co-worker produce nothing, often less than nothing (damaging what you've already completed) while tearfully wailing about working so hard, you start to question what's going on.
I think the older generation worked pretty hard to get this country to where it is so fast. But if Koreans today worked as hard as they pretend to, then they'd be on Mars curing cancer while writing timeless operas. Fact is, a if a foreigner did all that before lunch they'd still be considered lazy in Korea if they then went home to rest. |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:01 am Post subject: |
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^^ The main difference between foreigners and Koreans is for Koreans at a public school it is a career. (My wife showed me her elementary yearbook, one of the teachers was an old principal of mine.) Koreans move up by following the rules. For foreigners it's just a job, you won't move up, and the budget could be cut next year.
I knew a guy, busted his hump, did teacher training for other foreigners, and when he told them he wasn't renewing they were just "okay."
Another guy, like the above guy, did teacher training, and when he turned 59 he was told he's crap and not renewed (after about 7 years of renewals).
My co-teacher is early 40s. I saw her payslip on the screen. 4.1 Gross, netting 3.5 or 3.6 per month. And that pay is going up each year.
Two teachers from my school are taking this year off, each receiving 60% pay. I know a teachers couple, both the husband and wife took this year off, and they are travelling - each getting 60%.
Really, these teachers get a good deal, it really pays. I think they're mystified why some us (the smart ones, and there are plenty) are here. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: What happened to Korea??? |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Canadian1987 wrote: |
I felt like Korea would be a good fit for me...I was dead wrong.
When I arrived in Daegu to work for a terrible school called Poly, the school made several revisions to my contract, which included more hours, reduced pay, and a messed up severance.
|
Well Korea does not equal one (or two schools).
Your experience is mostly different because you were unlucky enough to land jobs at two bad schools. Your friends were either (a) luckier or (b) embellishing their experiences somewhat.
That said yes things have gotten tougher over here. More and more people are coming over to teach and many private schools are upping the requirements (both in terms of paperwork and performance) while public schools seem to be upping the ante (in terms of paperwork at least) even more every year.
As for the criticism directed at the FTs at your school...I wouldn't take much notice of it. Standard hakwon management procedures. Just do the best you can. As for the rest...SNIP and go about your day. |
What kinds of things are being increased in public school? |
Paperwork mostly. Doubled up documentation. |
They make you do paperwork now? Isn't it all in Korean? I'm public out in the provinces, so maybe those changes haven't affected me yet. I only make material for my classes. I have no paperwork burden, but I teach more classes than my Korean co teachers. I'm 22 versus their 18 to 20 range.
But, because I've been here for a few years, I've saved most PPT's and other exercises on an external hard drive. So, usually, when teachers come at me at the last minute, I just pull out a file and go teach it. (Like an extra camp or something.)
I will say the past couple of years I might be asked to correct some students writing on occasion as I never did that before. One of my schools this year will make me supervise a couple of classes on exam days instead of sitting at my desk. Kind of a minor pain in the butt, but bearable, I guess. Maybe, it's starting here too. Lol. |
Yep, correcting the students' writing is fairly common here at my school as well as proctoring for exams. Last time when exam time came around I was supervising anywhere from 1-3 exams per day. But then again the VP gave me the Friday of exam week off...so it was all good.
I hear you on the hard drive thing. I've one that I've saved a ton of material on...as well as a second for copies of official documents and paperwork for the application process. Never know when you might need them. It's a handy little backup especially when you get a last minute request. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The Western (or, more specifically Anglo/American) concept of work is actually doing something. Thus, when we finish a task we consider 'work' to be finished and get frustrated by having to sit around just for show. |
Hence why the term "desk-warming" is a word that is Korean in origin, not Anglo-American.
Are you seriously suggesting that if you have a contractually mandated number of hours to be at work per week, that in an American workplace they'd just tell you to go home if you got everything done in 35 hours, but still had 5 to go?
Back home, your job requires 40 hours per week, you have to be at the office for 40 hours.
| Quote: |
| whereas a foreigner can complete a task in a couple of hours and have that same sense of accomplishment. |
No, they'll just be given an additional task to finish. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: What happened to Korea??? |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Canadian1987 wrote: |
I felt like Korea would be a good fit for me...I was dead wrong.
When I arrived in Daegu to work for a terrible school called Poly, the school made several revisions to my contract, which included more hours, reduced pay, and a messed up severance.
|
Well Korea does not equal one (or two schools).
Your experience is mostly different because you were unlucky enough to land jobs at two bad schools. Your friends were either (a) luckier or (b) embellishing their experiences somewhat.
That said yes things have gotten tougher over here. More and more people are coming over to teach and many private schools are upping the requirements (both in terms of paperwork and performance) while public schools seem to be upping the ante (in terms of paperwork at least) even more every year.
As for the criticism directed at the FTs at your school...I wouldn't take much notice of it. Standard hakwon management procedures. Just do the best you can. As for the rest...SNIP and go about your day. |
What kinds of things are being increased in public school? |
Paperwork mostly. Doubled up documentation. |
They make you do paperwork now? Isn't it all in Korean? I'm public out in the provinces, so maybe those changes haven't affected me yet. I only make material for my classes. I have no paperwork burden, but I teach more classes than my Korean co teachers. I'm 22 versus their 18 to 20 range.
But, because I've been here for a few years, I've saved most PPT's and other exercises on an external hard drive. So, usually, when teachers come at me at the last minute, I just pull out a file and go teach it. (Like an extra camp or something.)
I will say the past couple of years I might be asked to correct some students writing on occasion as I never did that before. One of my schools this year will make me supervise a couple of classes on exam days instead of sitting at my desk. Kind of a minor pain in the butt, but bearable, I guess. Maybe, it's starting here too. Lol. |
Yep, correcting the students' writing is fairly common here at my school as well as proctoring for exams. Last time when exam time came around I was supervising anywhere from 1-3 exams per day. But then again the VP gave me the Friday of exam week off...so it was all good.
I hear you on the hard drive thing. I've one that I've saved a ton of material on...as well as a second for copies of official documents and paperwork for the application process. Never know when you might need them. It's a handy little backup especially when you get a last minute request. |
Yeah I see what you mean. I still don't correct that often. Though I had one school last year wanting to come up with a speaking test for the kids and I had to interview all Grade 2 near Mid Terms. Otherwise, they left me alone though as I had material on my hard drive, plus a couple of backed up copies elsewhere and USB keys, etc.
SO, my time is slack in that regard. Just some minor modifications from time to time. One school is asking me to supervise 2 exams a day when I never had to before. But are otherwise relaxed because they aren't making me do any speaking tests or very much correcting.
Gotta go really rural to get slackness. Maybe less classes than 22 and maybe no one bothering you. But the catch is you have to live in these places in your free time. Boring as sh!t. If you're studying for an online course, it might be good for that however. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Canadian1987 wrote: |
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OP With all "your experience" and apparent qualifications why are you messing about in hogwons in Daegu in the first place? how would that count as experience in any qualification?
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By "experience" I am referring to my experience in teaching classes, such as Calculus AP, Biology 40s, Math 10S, and Science 20S. True it does not qualify as experience in light of ESL, but it's much more teaching experience than any of my friends (they are all sociology majors, btw)
Im not trying to have a go at you or anything im just curious. |
[/quote][/quote]
Then, get a job as an international science teacher. You will be much happier. In fact, I know someone who is looking for a science teacher. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The Western (or, more specifically Anglo/American) concept of work is actually doing something. Thus, when we finish a task we consider 'work' to be finished and get frustrated by having to sit around just for show. |
Hence why the term "desk-warming" is a word that is Korean in origin, not Anglo-American.
Are you seriously suggesting that if you have a contractually mandated number of hours to be at work per week, that in an American workplace they'd just tell you to go home if you got everything done in 35 hours, but still had 5 to go?
Back home, your job requires 40 hours per week, you have to be at the office for 40 hours.
| Quote: |
| whereas a foreigner can complete a task in a couple of hours and have that same sense of accomplishment. |
No, they'll just be given an additional task to finish. |
You just answered your own question. You wouldn't be sent home early in the West, but you'd be given additional tasks. And if you're caught wasting time, i.e. taking naps or messing around on facebook, you'll get in trouble (not that it doesn't happen, I'm just talking about the workplace policy). In Korea, you can come into work with no tasks and be expected to fool around, as long as you complain and tell every passer-by how busy and tired you are. Hence, many foreigners here aren't used to being forced to be at work with no tasks to complete. We don't consider it an efficient use of time, we're used to having a purpose. And purpose=doing something where we're from. In Korea, purpose=being somewhere.
But I do stand by my statement that we have different ideas of accomplishments. I think most foreigners here see it almost everyday. For example, just before last winter break I made my camp book, all the ppts and materials, and would eventually teach it all on my own. However, when the principal said we could leave early on the last day of school my CTs thought I was lazy for actually wanting to go. I actually got called "lucky" for being "not busy" enough to go home early BY WAKING UP MY CO-TEACHER FROM A 2 HOUR NAP to let her know we could leave early. She then went back to sleep. And this is not nearly an isolated incident. I've said it before, a foreigner could cure cancer but Koreans would call him lazy if he did it in 8 hours instead of 13. It's just how they see the world. Efficiency is an Anglo-American virtue, and it's not shared by several other cultures. The difference is a Spaniard knows they live life more slowly. A Korean still insists they are the busiest people in the world. |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The Western (or, more specifically Anglo/American) concept of work is actually doing something. Thus, when we finish a task we consider 'work' to be finished and get frustrated by having to sit around just for show. |
Hence why the term "desk-warming" is a word that is Korean in origin, not Anglo-American.
Are you seriously suggesting that if you have a contractually mandated number of hours to be at work per week, that in an American workplace they'd just tell you to go home if you got everything done in 35 hours, but still had 5 to go?
Back home, your job requires 40 hours per week, you have to be at the office for 40 hours.
| Quote: |
| whereas a foreigner can complete a task in a couple of hours and have that same sense of accomplishment. |
No, they'll just be given an additional task to finish. |
You just answered your own question. You wouldn't be sent home early in the West, but you'd be given additional tasks. And if you're caught wasting time, i.e. taking naps or messing around on facebook, you'll get in trouble (not that it doesn't happen, I'm just talking about the workplace policy). In Korea, you can come into work with no tasks and be expected to fool around, as long as you complain and tell every passer-by how busy and tired you are. Hence, many foreigners here aren't used to being forced to be at work with no tasks to complete. We don't consider it an efficient use of time, we're used to having a purpose. And purpose=doing something where we're from. In Korea, purpose=being somewhere.
But I do stand by my statement that we have different ideas of accomplishments. I think most foreigners here see it almost everyday. For example, just before last winter break I made my camp book, all the ppts and materials, and would eventually teach it all on my own. However, when the principal said we could leave early on the last day of school my CTs thought I was lazy for actually wanting to go. I actually got called "lucky" for being "not busy" enough to go home early BY WAKING UP MY CO-TEACHER FROM A 2 HOUR NAP to let her know we could leave early. She then went back to sleep. And this is not nearly an isolated incident. I've said it before, a foreigner could cure cancer but Koreans would call him lazy if he did it in 8 hours instead of 13. It's just how they see the world. Efficiency is an Anglo-American virtue, and it's not shared by several other cultures. The difference is a Spaniard knows they live life more slowly. A Korean still insists they are the busiest people in the world. |
I worked quite a few jobs in the USA and I found the whole efficiency thing only applied to food service and I absolutely hated it. There is nothing like having to polish a table 6 times in a 2 hour time frame just to keep your manager off your back. I find it refreshing to walk into a restaurant here and see the servers chilling out watching a drama on TV or something, but at the same time they don't hesitate to get up and make sure everything you need is provided.
Once I moved into more administrative jobs that required time at the desk I noticed the management was more lax and as long as you weren't that idiot coworker that always moaned about "I am sooooooo bored, why am I here!!!" within earshot of the manager you were free to do whatever you wanted online as long as your work was done on time and done well. And for some reason the guy that was complaining about being bored was the same guy that would complain about the workload he received. I was a manager at one point, and I can say in my case if someone said they were bored or had nothing to do I always made sure they never said it again. It was really one of my pet peeves so I just wanted to rant about it for a bit. When I hear people complain about desk warming I just want to throw their computer out the window and make them clean the bathrooms.
I have my issues with the work ethic in both countries. I think the whole reputation of Korea as a work a holic place is overblown and self imposed though. More hours does not equal more work. Quit complaining to me about how tired you are. Just chill, watch tv, go to a baseball game, geez. |
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SNOTOSEOUL
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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I just read OP first post and I think I have some advice.
I had a really hard time at my first hagwon. Really racist-like director yelling at me if i was even 5 minutes late or didn't teach directly from the book (even though I had developed my own lessons). On top of that, if pay day was on a Sunday, they wouldn't pay me until the following Monday!!! 
They continued to pull shit like this. Once they asked me to come in on a Saturday to help with an extra annual teachers party. Even though my contract says no weekends! 
Anyways, typical BShit that we all put up with. But you know what, I managed to smooth things out and now i get along really well with my co-teachers and director. Here is what I did.
I went to Paris Baguette and saw these egg tarts for 3/1,000 won. I have 4 co-teachers. So I bought one bag and opened another up and took one out. This caused problems with the bakery lady. I guess Koreans don't like buying egg tarts one at a time. I gave the egg-tarts to my co-teachers and they really liked me every since. 
N E ways, everything worked out really well from then on with my coteachers until my BF (we lived together, worked at the same academy etc) got fired for failing the drug test on his E2 medical check. Now my work thinks i'm some sort of criminal. [/u] |
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