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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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 Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
| Hanja is good for people of certain personality types, like Fox. |
I've thought about learning the 1,800 standard hanja. I tried and it was freaking hard! A very time consuming task. So I gave up. Should I start again? Would it be worth it? What about you, mithridates? How many hanja do you know? |
At least 3000 - I passed this test about ten years ago:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji_kentei#Grade_Semi-1
If you would to learn them again I would go by frequency instead of by level, since on the lower levels you usually learn hanja that are easy to write but rarely seen. 議 is much more frequent than 貝, for example.
On the TED talk, I agree with this comment:
| Quote: |
Not fond of her introduction. Show me the peer-reviewed articles and evidence that language learning declines with age! I don't buy it and neither do researchers.
Babies learn languages well because
1) They are learning simple phrases
2) They receive constant comprehensible input
3) They have no other preoccupations or commitments
Adult learners may have trouble ONLY because
1) They already mastered a language and therefore have unrealistic expectations. They get frustrated when they can't express 'adult thoughts' right away in the second language. However, if they want to master baby phrases, they can do so very quickly. Think of how long it takes a child to master their native language... constant exposure and formal education for 15-17 years. And the learning doesn't stop there.
2) Adult learners often receive little to no comprehensible input in the second language
3) Most adult learners cannot free themselves of all other life commitments to learn the second language
If you want to argue that babies learn pronunciation better, then that might be so. However, don't tell an already foreign language fearing population that they are unable to learn another language as adults. |
I'll show you a good example of where adults would be very motivated to learn a language:
http://www.international.gc.ca/jobs-emplois/faq.aspx
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2. Q. Do I need to be bilingual to apply?
A. Foreign Service Officers and Management Consular Officers** who do not meet the required CCC level of proficiency in their second official language will be provided with official language training at the department’s expense. For those selected candidates who do not meet the second language requirements, up to 52 weeks of second language training will be provided at the department’s expense in the National Capital Region. These candidates will only be hired as indeterminate Foreign Service Officers or Management Consular Officers upon successful completion of the language training. |
As for the vowel inventory of French - it might provide a bit of an advantage but I'm not sure how much. English already has quite a few on its own. |
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Ginormousaurus
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Location: 700 Ft. Pulpit
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| (Every Canadian has 10 years of French instruction at school as a minimum, correct?) |
Incorrect. |
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nicwr2002
Joined: 17 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Learning the Korean language: possible for everyone? |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
I'm beginning to think it's not. Can every child learn the Korean language (or any other language)? Sure. They are learning when they are young (when their brain is adapted towards language learning).
Look at the lifers (including those who have Korean wives and Korean kids). How many can speak Korean? As an overall percentage, very very few. Almost none at all. They have a reason to learn Korean obviously, so why don't they? I think it is because adults are at a severe disadvantage when it comes to learning another language.
A lot of research about the advantage of children over adults in language learning exists within the scientific community. Have you seen it?
This video is really making me think:
"There is a huge variability between individuals. So some people when learning a second language can perceive and produce all the sounds of this second language very fast. They get to it in a few weeks or months. And sometimes it's not possible and some people never get to a good pronunciation of a second language, even after years and years of practice."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hca8XEEfo_U [5:557-6:25]
My sister has been teaching English for a while now. Same with her husband. They both told me children learn languages better than adults. And I think they would know, as they have had experience teaching hundreds of students.
When I asked her about this, my sister told me it may not be possible for an adult to learn a language. She said the age of starting is very, very important. My sister's husband on the other hand said it is possible for an adult to learn a language, but that the cost will be much higher.
Now I have questions in my head that trouble me.
"Is is possible for me to learn the Korean language?"
"If possible, what is the opportunity cost? How many years? How many thousands of hours? How much heartache and pain? How many thousands of dollars in lost wages? Is the opportunity cost worth knowing a language spoken by less than one percent of the world's population? What will I have to sacrifice in order to learn Korean? What will the benefits be? Will it be worth it? What if I study a long time only to be unable to speak the language (or only to be able to speak it poorly)?"
All of this weighs heavily on my heart. |
Stop trying to say that it's too hard to learn Korea just because you failed to do it. I'm sure lifers here don't learn Korean to fluency for the simple fact that their spouse speaks for better English than they do Korea. Therefore, they just fall back on using English most of the time. It takes a lot of effort and will power to force yourself to use Korean in the household knowing that you could get your idea across much faster if you just use Korean.
I'm not saying that learning Korean is easy, and it's quite the daunting task if you are studying alone. Especially if you have no prior background in learning a SOV (subject object verb) language. For me, the only difficult thing is pronouncing the words correctly, but if I continue to practice speaking, the pronunciation will come eventually.
With that being said, if you've never in your life learned another language, whether it was in high school or what not, then you will be at a serious disadvantage than others who did learn another language when they were younger. If anyone has ever taken a high school language class and went beyond the mandatory requirements, then that person will have an easier time learning another language.
It's not impossible to learn Korean or any language for that matter. It all depends on the will power, study habits, and whether the person uses what they learn on a daily basis. Take all the immigrant stories from America and how some people went from speaking zero English to being almost fluent just by using a dictionary and practicing a few words a day. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: Learning the Korean language: possible for everyone? |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
Look at the lifers (including those who have Korean wives and Korean kids). How many can speak Korean? As an overall percentage, very very few. Almost none at all. |
They don't need to. Their wives and kids speak english to them, or do what needs to be done in Korean for them.
Same goes for esl teachers. Their workplaces speak english to them, they meet only english speakers either in Itaewon, social groups, or english-speaking churches.
The brain does not remember what it has no need to.
| laynamarya wrote: |
| Why do children learn languages so (seemingly) effortlessly? Because they have a strong motivation to do so. |
Most Korean kids have zero motivation to learn english.
If they learn faster, its because up to a certain age childrens brains are designed like sponges.
| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| I'm not saying that learning Korean is easy, and it's quite the daunting task if you are studying alone. Especially if you have no prior background in learning a SOV (subject object verb) language. |
The main obstacle to learning korean is lack of motivation due to absence of cultural attraction.
If I spend even a fortnight in France, Italy or Holland I pick up the lingo almost effortlessly. Because of the cultural reference point and because there is an irresistible perception of much to be admired and desired in those cultures.
Korea generally makes foreign people feel uncomfortable , excluded and intimidated. Walking through cities of featureless grey concrete and litter does not spark a fire of wanting to connect with this culture. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Ginormousaurus wrote: |
| Incorrect. |
The Canadians I've met have said they had 10 years of mandatory French instruction in their public schools. That's why I asked/assumed. (Maybe it's just some provinces though that require that?) Care to elaborate on your comment (rather than just telling me I'm wrong)? |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:54 pm Post subject: Re: Learning the Korean language: possible for everyone? |
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| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| Take all the immigrant stories from America and how some people went from speaking zero English to being almost fluent just by using a dictionary and practicing a few words a day. |
Actually, the adult immigrants to America generally never were able to learn English (beyond the basics), but their kids became fluent. The adults formed "little Italy", "little Germany", "little Russia", etc. neighborhoods. Nowadays immigrants coming to America have an English language background from learning it as a kid as it is a mandatory subject in public schools around the world (so they have an advantage in English compared to immigrants of the past).
| sethzor wrote: |
| it's true for English-speaking expats in Korea, and it's also true for hundreds of thousands of immigrants anywhere else in the world - I'm pretty sure no more than 1 out of 10 Polish expats in Belfast speaks English beyond the absolute basics. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| r2b2ct wrote: |
| I do think motivation matters a lot. . |
That's pretty much the only thing that matters, IMO. For any language. |
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nicwr2002
Joined: 17 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:02 am Post subject: Re: Learning the Korean language: possible for everyone? |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| Take all the immigrant stories from America and how some people went from speaking zero English to being almost fluent just by using a dictionary and practicing a few words a day. |
Actually, the adult immigrants to America generally never were able to learn English (beyond the basics), but their kids became fluent. The adults formed "little Italy", "little Germany", "little Russia", etc. neighborhoods. Nowadays immigrants coming to America have an English language background from learning it as a kid as it is a mandatory subject in public schools around the world (so they have an advantage in English compared to immigrants of the past).
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Tell that to my step father who came from Chile with zero English skills. He used a dictionary as his study guide and is now fluent in English.
To Julius: Yes, it does take dedication since Korean isn't a similar language like Spanish, French, German. I must admit I do have an advantage since I graduated with BA in Japanese. The languages are similar so it's easier for me to grasp it just like Spansih would be easier for an English speaker to grasp. |
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IPayInCash
Joined: 27 Jul 2013
Location: Away from all my board stalkers :)
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:22 am Post subject: Re: Learning the Korean language: possible for everyone? |
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| Julius wrote: |
The main obstacle to learning korean is lack of motivation due to absence of cultural attraction.
If I spend even a fortnight in France, Italy or Holland I pick up the lingo almost effortlessly. Because of the cultural reference point and because there is an irresistible perception of much to be admired and desired in those cultures.
Korea generally makes foreign people feel uncomfortable , excluded and intimidated. Walking through cities of featureless grey concrete and litter does not spark a fire of wanting to connect with this culture. |
Yea I'm with this guy. Add Japan to the list of places with so much cultural attraction it will motivate you to learn the language.
I think you brought up good points. Foreigners aren't motivated to learn Korean because they don't feel welcome here. At least that's the case with me. Whereas in Japan everyone was so much more polite and friendly to me it really did motivate me to learn the language so I can make more friends. What's the primary use for Korean if I take the time to become fluent? Probably arguing on the train with an ajumma. Yuck, no thanks. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
| r2b2ct wrote: |
| I do think motivation matters a lot. . |
That's pretty much the only thing that matters, IMO. For any language. |
You can speak Korean, transmogrifier? |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
| r2b2ct wrote: |
| I do think motivation matters a lot. . |
That's pretty much the only thing that matters, IMO. For any language. |
You can speak Korean, transmogrifier? |
Not very well at all. Because I lack the motivation to do it. Don't need it for work, don't need it for home.....all excuses, of course, because I'm pretty lazy in that regard. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:17 am Post subject: Re: Learning the Korean language: possible for everyone? |
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| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| Tell that to my step father who came from Chile with zero English skills. He used a dictionary as his study guide and is now fluent in English. |
He had no English instruction as a child in the Chilean public school he attended? Nowdays students get it, but maybe when he was a student, things were different. Also, Spanish is similar to English, so it would be easier to learn than an unrelated exotic language. Nevertheless, well done. I guess what I don't agree with though is the reasoning that because one person does something it is possible for everyone else. That's like saying, "Hines Ward is in the NFL. Why aren't you in the NFL, nicw2002?" |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
| World Traveler wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
| r2b2ct wrote: |
| I do think motivation matters a lot. . |
That's pretty much the only thing that matters, IMO. For any language. |
You can speak Korean, transmogrifier? |
Not very well at all. Because I lack the motivation to do it. Don't need it for work, don't need it for home.....all excuses, of course, because I'm pretty lazy in that regard. |
But you have a Korean wife and Korean kid(s). (Just one kid?) I remember you said you took your kid to the Transformers movie, so I assume he is getting old. Don't you want to be able to understand everything he says? Don't you want to be able to understand everything your wife says? Don't you want to be able to talk to your relatives (including your wife's parents)? This is all good motivation (or at least it should be anyways). |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
| World Traveler wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
| r2b2ct wrote: |
| I do think motivation matters a lot. . |
That's pretty much the only thing that matters, IMO. For any language. |
You can speak Korean, transmogrifier? |
Not very well at all. Because I lack the motivation to do it. Don't need it for work, don't need it for home.....all excuses, of course, because I'm pretty lazy in that regard. |
But you have a Korean wife and Korean kid(s). (Just one kid?) I remember you said you took your kid to the Transformers movie, so I assume he is getting old. Don't you want to be able to understand everything he says? Don't you want to be able to understand everything your wife says? Don't you want to be able to talk to your relatives (including your wife's parents)? This is all good motivation (or at least it should be anyways). |
You're thinking of someone else. I don't have any kids. And I'm not Canadian, btw (unless you get automatic citizenship for stays of 10 days or more). |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| You are a New Zealander, right? And just a Korean wife? Maybe it was 12ax7 I was thinking of who posted under you who talked about his kid(s). Still, don't you want to be able to talk to your wife's parents? Also, as a lifer, Korean could come in handy in your day to day life. |
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