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Beeyee
Joined: 29 May 2007
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 Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| robbie_davies wrote: |
| Beeyee wrote: |
People suggesting that the OP just up and run astound me.
From what I can tell, the school is being quite reasonable in letting the OP leave after a month. The OP signed the contract knowing that they would have to pay the airfare if they bail mid-contract. The OP now wishes to break the contract and must therefore morally keep their side of the bargain.
People wonder why lots of hagwons are now starting to ditch the pre-paid airfare perk.  |
You are giving out bad advice.
Just ignore it, OP.
OP - go, if it is any consolation, I was losing my hair in Korea and it grew back once I left the place. |
I don't believe that I am but I appear to be in the minority so yeah, just screw it OP. Do the dirty on your employer, leave them searching for a new teacher and screw over your students who will be either without a teacher or probably stuck in a combined class with God knows how many others.
I guess honesty and integrity are not common traits to be found in your typical ESL teacher. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| Beeyee wrote: |
I don't believe that I am but I appear to be in the minority so yeah, just screw it OP. Do the dirty on your employer, leave them searching for a new teacher and screw over your students who will be either without a teacher or probably stuck in a combined class with God knows how many others.
I guess honesty and integrity are not common traits to be found in your typical ESL teacher. |
Honesty and integrity is a two way street and are sadly lacking in the hagwon industry in South Korea and secondly, it is a basic human right to be able to withdraw my labour at any time I choose and for whatever reason I deem appropriate. My name isn't Kunta Kinte whose freedom is based on a contract, those days have long gone.  |
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IPayInCash
Joined: 27 Jul 2013
Location: Away from all my board stalkers :)
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:48 am Post subject: |
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I pulled a runner once.
Such a rush handing in that ARC to the immigration officer and taking off in that plane, knowing you're screwing THEM before they screw YOU. Feels good.
ROFL @ people saying the OP should stay when her hair is falling out, talking about "honor." This is is Korea we're talking about not Japan. Honor is non-existent here. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:16 am Post subject: |
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The overwhelming majority of hogwans in Korea are honest. Their employees are enrolled in National Health Insurance and Pension. They are paid according to their contract.
The OP has given no indication of his employer not honoring the contract. Hair loss is not generally a medical condition at all. It is a normal part of life that comes with his genes. For the OP, it may just be his time to lose his hair. Many men go completely bald, naturally, before the age of 25. This is no excuse for a runner.
If you enter into a contract, and you are the party that does not honor the contract, but, in fact, you cheat the other party - then you are a crook. Period.
This is not the same as ending a contract according to the contract provisions that allow for contract termination. If you end a contract according to its terms, then you are honoring your contract commitments.
Screwing your honest employer is no different than screwing your honest employees.
Anyone who would cheat their employer by running without cause, or who advocates cheating an employer who has not cheated the employee, is not only a crook, but that person would be a crook if the tables were turned and they were the employer.
Hopefully no one posting here who advocates cheating this school will ever become an employer. We can be sure that if they do, they will be cheat their own employees just as they advocate cheating honest schools. |
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IPayInCash
Joined: 27 Jul 2013
Location: Away from all my board stalkers :)
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| The overwhelming majority of hogwans in Korea are honest. Their employees are enrolled in National Health Insurance and Pension. They are paid according to their contract. |
Stopped reading right here. I just couldn't go any further from laughing so hard at this.  |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
The overwhelming majority of hogwans in Korea are honest. Their employees are enrolled in National Health Insurance and Pension. They are paid according to their contract.
The OP has given no indication of his employer not honoring the contract. Hair loss is not generally a medical condition at all. It is a normal part of life that comes with his genes. For the OP, it may just be his time to lose his hair. Many men go completely bald, naturally, before the age of 25. This is no excuse for a runner.
If you enter into a contract, and you are the party that does not honor the contract, but, in fact, you cheat the other party - then you are a crook. Period.
This is not the same as ending a contract according to the contract provisions that allow for contract termination. If you end a contract according to its terms, then you are honoring your contract commitments.
Screwing your honest employer is no different than screwing your honest employees.
Anyone who would cheat their employer by running without cause, or who advocates cheating an employer who has not cheated the employee, is not only a crook, but that person would be a crook if the tables were turned and they were the employer.
Hopefully no one posting here who advocates cheating this school will ever become an employer. We can be sure that if they do, they will be cheat their own employees just as they advocate cheating honest schools. |
This whole post screams 'sucker' as well as 'lifer.
Ignore. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| IPayInCash wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| The overwhelming majority of hogwans in Korea are honest. |
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I got that far to be honest. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:00 am Post subject: |
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OP, regardless of what the contract says or implies, you are legally allowed to quit at any time you like with no advanced notice. That's the way. You can't even sign away that right if you wanted to.
Legally, the school would not be allowed to withhold your pay for money you owe them (e.g. for airfare) BUT they'll do it anyway and then it's neccessary for YOU to resolve the matter in court.
The easiest solution is to just leave a couple of days after you get paid. I'd but fora couple of days after payday just in case it's late. If it arrives on time, you can either work for the extra days or just move out of your apartment and stay at a hotel/hostel/etc. for a couple of days until your flight.
If you want to test the waters to see what kind of boss you have, ask them if it would be possible for you to take a 1 or 2 week unpaid holiday to get your health and peace of mind back in order. If they look like they don't care about your health then just leave after getting paid. If they seem genuinely concerned then you might consider giving advanced notice that you're leaving.
Or if you really want to leave, then just go to the airport tomorrow morning and take the first flight out. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| robbie_davies wrote: |
| IPayInCash wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| The overwhelming majority of hogwans in Korea are honest. |
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I got that far to be honest. |
No surprise. Dishonesty depends on ignoring the truth. When you advocate dishonesty, you show your true colors.
There is no question that most hogwans in Korea are honest and honor their contracts. Yes, there are still too many that don't, but it's a small percentage.
Anyone who advocates cheating an employer who has honored the contract is a crook, just as anyone who would support an employer who cheats an employee is a crook. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
No surprise. Dishonesty depends on ignoring the truth. When you advocate dishonesty, you show your true colors. |
I am advocating the basic human right of being able to withdraw labour for any reason they see fit. Even if it is because they are missing their goldfish, the indentured labour schtick is so 1860's you know.
| Quote: |
| There is no question that most hogwans in Korea are honest and honor their contracts. Yes, there are still too many that don't, but it's a small percentage. |
You have no real proof of your rather bold claims, I have been ripped off 2/2 in Korea. As have many others if you bother to use the search function on this very forum.
| Quote: |
| Anyone who advocates cheating an employer who has honored the contract is a crook, |
They haven't yet. The employer may or they may not at the conclusion of the contract but no person has the right to make someone else stay if the other person doesn't want to. Simple as that.
| Quote: |
| Just as anyone who would support an employer who cheats an employee is a crook. |
I totally understand that after 10 years working in hagwon's that your identity and whole being is intertwined in this bunch of BS but look - not everyone has the same investment as you and if the OP wants to sack it off then the moral highground lies with them to quit whenever they want. The employer is not owed for future working days unless we have gone back in time to slavery. I think the OP is a free person who has the right to withdraw their labour at anytime they choose. You might not agree but that is because you seem a bit of a sucker. Sorry about that. |
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Aine1979
Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Location: Incheon
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| Hair loss is not generally a medical condition at all. |
Alopecia is indeed a medical condition, generally related to stress, and one which can be soul destroying. It can also be permanent. It may well be that the OP is not suited to life overseas, and has suffered stress related alopecia as a result of being parted from friends, family etc. |
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augustine
Joined: 08 Sep 2012
Location: México
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| IPayInCash wrote: |
| I pulled a runner once. |
Hah, what? You said before that you'd never broken a contract. This kind of trolling just becomes really pathetic at some point. When you see the, "80 guests, 1 hidden" at the bottom, you don't have to guess who the one dork hiding out is, trolling about some fake life he lives. That's the lowest of the low, really sad stuff. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Aine1979 wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| Hair loss is not generally a medical condition at all. |
Alopecia is indeed a medical condition, generally related to stress, and one which can be soul destroying. It can also be permanent. It may well be that the OP is not suited to life overseas, and has suffered stress related alopecia as a result of being parted from friends, family etc. |
Yes, some hair loss can be stress related, but most of the time, in men, hair loss is a natural condition. We have no way to know, but if there is any baldness in the OP's family it's likely just nature setting in. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| robbie_davies wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
No surprise. Dishonesty depends on ignoring the truth. When you advocate dishonesty, you show your true colors. |
I am advocating the basic human right of being able to withdraw labour for any reason they see fit. Even if it is because they are missing their goldfish, the indentured labour schtick is so 1860's you know.
| Quote: |
| There is no question that most hogwans in Korea are honest and honor their contracts. Yes, there are still too many that don't, but it's a small percentage. |
You have no real proof of your rather bold claims, I have been ripped off 2/2 in Korea. As have many others if you bother to use the search function on this very forum.
| Quote: |
| Anyone who advocates cheating an employer who has honored the contract is a crook, |
They haven't yet. The employer may or they may not at the conclusion of the contract but no person has the right to make someone else stay if the other person doesn't want to. Simple as that.
| Quote: |
| Just as anyone who would support an employer who cheats an employee is a crook. |
I totally understand that after 10 years working in hagwon's that your identity and whole being is intertwined in this bunch of BS but look - not everyone has the same investment as you and if the OP wants to sack it off then the moral highground lies with them to quit whenever they want. The employer is not owed for future working days unless we have gone back in time to slavery. I think the OP is a free person who has the right to withdraw their labour at anytime they choose. You might not agree but that is because you seem a bit of a sucker. Sorry about that. |
Sorry, but you are wrong. I always advocate for honesty in all areas of life. Being honest is not being a sucker.
You and a few others on this thread have exposed yourselves as crooks. Now you should take a good look at yourself and see your true colors. Nothing to be proud of. Sorry about that. But people can change, though most don't. So you can wake yourself up and decide to become a decent honest person.
While the OP is not a slave and has the right to quit at any time, the OP also signed a contract. Working under a contract is not the same as working "at will." Most E2 teachers in Korea have never had an employment contract before coming to Korea, and most will never have another one after leaving Korea.
It is dishonest not to live by the terms of that contract that the OP freely signed - including the provisions on resignation - just as you claim you were ripped off by employers not honoring the provisions in contracts that you signed.
What you don't seem to realize is that everyone has the "right" to refuse to fullfill any contract - yes even when you buy a car or a house. It is not a crime to break any contract - you will not go to jail for breaking the contract. The courts can demand "specific performance" of a contract, but this is not the usual outcome. Instead the courts will order that damages be paid when a dishonest party breaks a contract (which is why auto, mortgage and credit card contracts go into much detail about damages and penalties). You can, however, go to jail for not obeying a court order - including a court order for damages for breaking a contract.
For example, if an employer fires a teacher without 30 days' notice, the Labor Office acting in it's legal capaciity, or a court, will usually order the employer to give the worker 30 days pay, but they will almost never reinstate the worker for a 30 day notice period of work, requiring the parties to perform the contract. Instead the award is for damages.
Likewise, if a teacher is dishonest and refuses to honor the contract terms, they can quit at any time. This does not eliminate the right of the employer to sue the teacher for damages for breach of that contract, even though the teacher is not a slave and does have the right to quit. This is unlikely to happen, however, since the employer has the legal duty to mitigate damages. For government schools, since the E2 teachers are only assistants and there are already Korean teachers in place to take over a class, there are rarely any damages possible from quitting without notice. Most hogwans also can get other teachers to take over or recombine classes, so the damages will usually be low. We are engaged in a theoretical conversation about the OP's future and theft in general. But petty theft is still dishonest, and honesty and legality are not the same thing. Many legal acts are dishonest or immoral, and many honest, moral activities are illegal.
(In fact, courts can order a worker to perform the contract duties - that is, the court can order "specific performance" of the contract. But this almost never happens, and is only used for vital services that no one else is able to provide - definitely not an E2 teacher.)
Despite your personal 2 for 2 history, most hogwans in Korea are honest and most teachers get paid according to their contracts in Korea. I've known personally hundreds of teachers who got everything according to the contract, or more than the contract required. If you want to cite Dave's, then you will find a few hundred complaints per year out of ten thousand hogwan teachers - well under 5%. Sure it may be 10% or 20% who've been ripped off, but that still leaves the majority paid honestly. In many cases, however, it's the teacher who ripped off the school, we rarely hear the other side of these stories, and we never hear about the teachers who cheat honest schools, although we do see you and others advocating for that. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
Sorry, but you are wrong. I always advocate for honesty in all areas of life. Being honest is not being a sucker. |
I am not wrong, your argument is really silly.
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| You and a few others on this thread have exposed yourselves as crooks. Now you should take a good look at yourself and see your true colors. Nothing to be proud of. Sorry about that. But people can change, though most don't. So you can wake yourself up and decide to become a decent honest person. |
I sort of understood that I get paid for work undertook and whenever I decide I have had enough then I can leave. What has got to do with being a crook?
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| While the OP is not a slave and has the right to quit at any time, the OP also signed a contract. |
So what? Indentured servants back in 1860 signed contracts. Was even paid travelling expenses. We have gone past that now man.
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| Working under a contract is not the same as working "at will." Most E2 teachers in Korea have never had an employment contract before coming to Korea, and most will never have another one after leaving Korea. |
I am pretty sure the employment laws of Korea state that an employee can leave a contract anytime they want. Even daft kids on an E-2 who want to go home for whatever reason they deem as valid.
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| It is dishonest not to live by the terms of that contract that the OP freely signed - including the provisions on resignation - just as you claim you were ripped off by employers not honoring the provisions in contracts that you signed. |
It is not dishonest at all, things change all the time, the worker has the right to break a contract for whatever reason they choose, the employer has no right to the days and hours in lieu of any worker without their consent. I am sure Korean labour law says exactly the same thing.
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| What you don't seem to realize is that everyone has the "right" to refuse to fullfill any contract - yes even when you buy a car or a house. It is not a crime to break any contract - you will not go to jail for breaking the contract. The courts can demand "specific performance" of a contract, but this is not the usual outcome. Instead the courts will order that damages be paid when a dishonest party breaks a contract (which is why auto, mortgage and credit card contracts go into much detail about damages and penalties). You can, however, go to jail for not obeying a court order - including a court order for damages for breaking a contract. |
No one has ever been to jail in Korea or Canada for not working outside of the armed forces where you can go to jail for refusing to soldier. But if you want to compare being a hagwon chimp to being a member of the armed forces then it kind of proves your point being crap.
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| For example, if an employer fires a teacher without 30 days' notice, the Labor Office acting in it's legal capaciity, or a court, will usually order the employer to give the worker 30 days pay, but they will almost never reinstate the worker for a 30 day notice period of work, requiring the parties to perform the contract. Instead the award is for damages. |
Because you can't force a worker to give their labour if they don't want to. That is the whole point.
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| Likewise, if a teacher is dishonest and refuses to honor the contract terms, they can quit at any time. This does not eliminate the right of the employer to sue the teacher for damages for breach of that contract, even though the teacher is not a slave and does have the right to quit. This is unlikely to happen, however, since the employer has the legal duty to mitigate damages. For government schools, since the E2 teachers are only assistants and there are already Korean teachers in place to take over a class, there are rarely any damages possible from quitting without notice. Most hogwans also can get other teachers to take over or recombine classes, so the damages will usually be low. We are engaged in a theoretical conversation about the OP's future and theft in general. But petty theft is still dishonest, and honesty and legality are not the same thing. Many legal acts are dishonest or immoral, and many honest, moral activities are illegal. |
It is not petty theft because the employer is not entitled to working time in lieu without the workers consent, and the minute the worker decides to not consent, then the employer hasn't a leg to stand on and that is why you never see an employer winning a legal case against an employee for leaving a job (outside the armed forces). That is why a worker gets paid a couple of weeks in hand so the employer can partly compensate themselves if the employee leaves.
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| (In fact, courts can order a worker to perform the contract duties - that is, the court can order "specific performance" of the contract. But this almost never happens, and is only used for vital services that no one else is able to provide - definitely not an E2 teacher.) |
What complete and utter crock - maybe in North Korea but nowhere in the civilised world.
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| Despite your personal 2 for 2 history, most hogwans in Korea are honest and most teachers get paid according to their contracts in Korea. |
What nonsense.
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| I've known personally hundreds of teachers who got everything according to the contract, or more than the contract required. |
And I have personally known hundreds who haven't.
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| If you want to cite Dave's, then you will find a few hundred complaints per year out of ten thousand hogwan teachers - well under 5%. Sure it may be 10% or 20% who've been ripped off, but that still leaves the majority paid honestly. In many cases, however, it's the teacher who ripped off the school, we rarely hear the other side of these stories, and we never hear about the teachers who cheat honest schools, although we do see you and others advocating for that. |
If the teacher actually rips off the school by actually stealing something that belongs to them then you may have a point but a teacher can't steal something that belongs to them in the first place - their time and their disposal of labour - and that is why all your post is a complete crock. |
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